Early Bird bonus for tournaments

[Magictobe]

I am a tournament organizer myself. And would like to say my 2cents in this matter.

I have (and more tournaments in Belgium do the same) a discount on fee for early registration. Organizing a tournament brings costs with it and it is nice to have some of the fee in advance to cover the costs.

So I can understand that you give a financial discount to encourage this but I absolutaly don't like the advantage in tournament. Early registration or late registration should not make a difference in the start of a game. There are some people with jobs who cannot say three weeks in advance that they will attend a tournament. With these rules you discourage late deciders (not always their fault) to come to your tournament and have bloodbowl fun (and that cannot be the spirit to run a tournament). As on organizer I like as much players on my tournament to have lot's of fun. When I am doubting the last week to come to a tournament this would tilt the scale to not come. Bloodbowl is a fun competition but I like to compete with equal weapons.

When you organize a soccer tournament, you would not say that early registrations can play with 12 players.

[lunchmoney]

Make of this what you will;

We played two test games last night, team A with 3AC&3CL and team B with none.
Game 1, team A won 3 RRs, but still lost the match 3-2, with no RRs left and team B with a RR to spare.
Game 2, team A won 2 RRs, won the match 3-1, but both teams had RRs left at the end.

Obviously two games is not a huge sample set, but it's a start. We will have more samples by Sunday evening.

[Magictobe]

Make of this what you will;

We played two test games last night, team A with 3AC&3CL and team B with none.
Game 1, team A won 3 RRs, but still lost the match 3-2, with no RRs left and team B with a RR to spare.
Game 2, team A won 2 RRs, won the match 3-1, but both teams had RRs left at the end.

Obviously two games is not a huge sample set, but it's a start. We will have more samples by Sunday evening.

The fact that teams uses RR's doesn't matter. The fact that team A has won those RR's is the fact that matters and would discourage people who can only decide the last minute to play to play this tournament.

[Glowworm]

@magictobe: I can see you point, but is financially penalising people any fairer? if I decide to book late due to work commitments for example why should I pay more for the same BB that my opponents are getting due to their circumstances. I know some UK coaches who don't attend tournament due to financial issues...

With the additional AC/CL it MAY influence a kick off result, which in turn MAY influence a half of BB or even a match, your method will make a difference to all the games played cost wise.....

...Or maybe the chance of "free" RR's would encourage more coaches to take certain teams, Elves & Khemri spring to mind....

I don't think either system is ideal, however I don't think either will break a tournament, maybe a free gift (as I believe Sam hinted at earlier in this thread) would be a better approach.

[Joemanji]

The official NAF stance is that early bird bonuses are fine. I should mention that there are two kinds of early bird bonuses :

1) A bonus for early payment.
2) A bonus for early submission of rosters.

Whilst the NAF policy is clear, my personal opinion is that both kind are detrimental to the hobby. I have chosen not to go to events because I could not commit early enough to secure the bonus and then was put off by bonuses. I almost didn't go to Thrud this year because of them and in the end having to worry about it and hassle / be hassled by Frank was something I could have done without.

Is this the intention? If one person doesn't come because of early bird bonuses you have lost more money than you'll ever gain back.

But this isn't even my main concern. In all honesty, I don't think all tournaments should cater to my tastes and if I don't like it, tough luck (and quite rightly). It isn't about me or any other tournament regular. It is about the newcomer.

My understanding (and this isn't based on any special knowledge) is that the stamp of "NAF sanctioned" is meant to stand mainly for the ideal of "inclusivity". It is about making sure a rookie can turn up to his first event and not be 'surprised' by anything we regulars do. This is why we only allow LRB6. This is a small part of why the Khorne roster was not sanctioned. This is why certain of the crazier skills rules have been toned down upon our request. We don't want a newcomer to caught out by something in his first event and be so pissed off he never comes back.

Early bird bonuses are an example of something that could easily catch out rookies. They are probably only mentioned in the small print, and newcomers are not looking for stuff like this in the way that us regulars will be.

I've run tournaments, from 12 person one day events to 150 people at the NAFC. I know full well the pressure of paying for an event. But I firmly believe that incentives for early payment should be kept separate from events on the pitch. This isn't hard to do. Here are a few examples :

1) The Waterbowl CD. First 15 people to pay get to choose a track for the CD that will soundtrack the weekend. This always brings in the cash.
2) Early Bird Raffle : The NAFC awarded a mound of prizes to one of the first 100 people to pay (chosen at random).
3) Just offer a monetary discount! Charge £15 up to a certain date and then £20 after. This brings the money sooner and brings in more. Spend any excess on prizes, food and drink and nobody will complain.

It is so easy to find ways to enncourage people to stump up the cash on time. Generally it is just caution or procrastination that makes them delay. Give people a reason and they'll get around to paying sooner rather than later.

I would like to add that my personal feeling is that bonuses for roster submission are barmy. This isn't Warhammer. It takes 20 seconds for your opponent to check your roster before game one. You can usually do it on your head, or if not on your phone. For me one of the joys of tournaments is making last minute decisions over races. Early roster submission kills fun and adds nothing.

I would again reiterate that this is not a NAF stance. From my discussions with the Tournament Director Pippy, he has no problem with them.

I just think they are dumb.

[Oventa]

...

+1 to everything

I would not go to a tournament that i have not attended before as a regular,
that offers early bird bonuses on pitch. That would put me off.
I want every participants to have the same starting point.
Only exception To this is the painting bonus to avoid seeing only white miniatures .

[sann0638]

tum ti tum

+1, FWIW

[Darkson]

Only exception To this is the painting bonus to avoid seeing only white miniatures .

Barmy stance in my opinion. If you don't want bonuses for early roster submissions, you shouldn't want bonuses for painted figures, which also have nothing to do with participants starting point.

I'm neither for nor against Early Birds - it would make no difference to me to my attending a tourney or not. I was lucky enough to be able to book for Exiles early (as in I booked the weekend off work in June), but if I'd only found out today I could make it, I'd have still attended even though I wouldn't have been entitled to it.

Only thing I do agree with Joe on is the newcomer bit though (which I believe Frank does?). Obviously, if someone new to the whole scene wants to go, I think the courtesy should be extended, but even that has it's limits - if they start posting in a Autumn tournament thread in say March, and post regularly, they can't claim "they didn't know about it".

[canteloup]

I didn't even realise there was an early bird bonus for Exiles V (it transpires I did and forgot), so I've missed the team submission deadline, by chance I paid early enogh to get coaches.

Bit miffed as I downloaded the rulespack and only used that as a point of reference and even though I am subscribed to the topic, I haven't recieved a single notification of new posts. The rulespack, unfortunately, has absolutely nothing in it about early bird stuff and I really can't remembering hearing it mentioned either (but then I have next to no memory of anything... ever... really, none, zip) so I've been "blissfully" unaware the whole time. I really think it simply slipped silently past me, wierd.

As to wether early bird bonuses are okay or not, I uderstand that some people really can't commit early because of work, (especially relevant to our top soldier boys, PAFs and sailor boys included there of course), kids, moany wife and all that, which is a good enough reason not to have early bird bonuses on it's own. It's also massively discouraging to latecomers who find they can arrend after all, I think a few people have been put off Exiles because of this very thing.

I paid early because it's the sensible thing to do, If you want to go to a tournament why not just book it and pay then and there, dealt with, you can go, done. I believe that TO's, to a man, are good chaps and if the worst happens and you have to cancel, I'm sure they'd let you have your money back if the place isn't snapped up anyway.

Maybe the best way to encourage people to get paying and get their roster in is to only book them in when thier money, otherwise that slot isn't secured (I know most tournaments don't allways fill up, but fear is a killer). You can't pay for a flight when you board the plane.

Is it really that helpful to check the rosters early, surely their first opponant can do that, possibly the chap next to them can help if they're young or a complete dummy. A couple of minutes set aside at the start of game one sorts that out.

As to whether it should be allowed in a sanctioned tournament, that is for the commitee to decide isn't it, but with no early bird bonuses for this tournament the player has no chance of winning that roll unless they get fame, and then only with a 1 in 9 chance, or they have to damage their team selection. Blood bowl is unbalanced enough isn't it.

Rules is rules and I'll abide by them with a big smile. I just wanted to stick my tupence in as feel that I really don't need extra disadvanteges in the game though, lets face it I'm crap at blood bowl!

[SillySod]

IMO bonuses are fine provided that they are trivial.

I would find it hard to get upset about bonus cheerleaders even if it turned out to be super critical. 3 Cheerleaders & 3 Coaches seems a bit much but it isn't crazy or anything. The only real criticism I can level at the system is that early roster submission is unnecessary so it seems a bit off to be rewarding it quite as heavily as you want to reward early payments. I think I'd expect a newer player to approach the bonus in the same way - it isn't large enough to feel important.

Other forms of early bird (and painting!) bonuses also suffer from being anti-inclusive. Different people just happen to prefer different demons.

The rulespack, unfortunately, has absolutely nothing in it about early bird stuff

This seems like a much more relevant complaint. Omitting rules from the rulepack is careless

2. if your not sure its a great idea, do you have to attend?

You don't have to attend but it seems perfectly acceptable to attend even if you don't like something. It also seems acceptable to voice dissatisfaction about the thing you don't like. Unless you are being a dick about it... which seems unlikely?

Time to roll out the stock phrase: "As a tournament organiser" I wanted people to do two things:
1 - attend the event (and possibly enjoy it).
2 - tell me what they didn't like about the event so it could be changed.

Someone turning up to an event then criticizing it afterwards is a dream scenario!

[Darkson]

I didn't even realise there was an early bird bonus for Exiles V,

And yet you posted about it in June in the Exiles thread.

[canteloup]

I didn't even realise there was an early bird bonus for Exiles V,

And yet you posted about it in June in the Exiles thread.

Absolutely right, I told you I had a bad memory (amnesic syndrome as it happens), must have noticed, posted and completely fogotten that I needed to subbmit my roster, what a ________! (insert comment here).

I did say I'd play the rules as written with a smile, and am happy to do so. I wasn't trying to get Al upset (if you read my posst in the exiles thread you'll see).

It doesn't change my opinion though, I really think exra CL and AC for early bird bonuses are a bad thing for the reasons I stated. I think you'll find my June post was actually questioning whether it was a good idea then.

(I took out the bold on my last message, it looked too aggresive)

Derision anyone?

[Purplegoo]

I couldn't agree more with Joe. I've been put off an event more than once because of such bonuses, and half of the fun is nerding over your roster right up to go time. I appreciate that money early is important, but give a cash discount or do something else creative to get it in.

I hope this on pitch leg-up trend dries up quickly. No harm to anyone that's put something in their rules, but it makes it more likely I won't come than pay early. Not that it's all about me; just my opinion.

[Nod_Hero]

I'm not a tourney player as of yet but I can assure you that I wouldn't go to a tourney that offered on-pitch advantages for paying early. Thus, the "priority" of getting other people's money sooner has cost the tourney one registration amount entirely. How many similar losses would be enough to make the early bird bonus a losing proposition?

[Glowworm]

2. if your not sure its a great idea, do you have to attend?

You don't have to attend but it seems perfectly acceptable to attend even if you don't like something. It also seems acceptable to voice dissatisfaction about the thing you don't like. Unless you are being a dick about it... which seems unlikely?

Me? Being a dick? How would have thought

I can only speak for my self but with regards to the tournament I "opted out of" as opposed to the ones I couldn't afford to attend/ was otherwise engaged I contacted the T.O and explained my reasons, apologised for my absence and wished him well, turns out it was a great success. My loss....

.

Someone turning up to an event then criticizing it afterwards is a dream scenario!

I've had two complaints about Crumb-bowl, one each year after the event, one was an observation on a particular Crumb specific rule, which I looked at, one about the "quality" of opponents which I really had no answer to...

I give no bonuses for early payment, although I am considering something for next year.. I do not enforce the roster submission, I do like races and team names in advance tho'. I do tend to know in advance what race I'm playing, I've already decided on a race for the Welsh open next year.....but that's my choice.

This really has opened up a big bag of whoop-ass!! Didnt see this coming, just hope it doesn't detract from the tournament circuit..

@canteloup:You are correct IMHO, it should have been listed in the rules pack. However, in the 18 years we have been friends I've yet to see you actually read one....