Early Bird bonus for tournaments

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mattwhile
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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by mattwhile »

glowworm wrote:
mattwhile wrote: I also like weather rolls and don't like the idea of tournies not including them.
.
you will be missed at Crumb-Bowl every year...... 8)

Seriousy, Can I ask why Matt? Is it a mechanics thing? Deviation from the accepted norm? What is your objection? I am genuinely interested.

i would like you to come to Crumb, but ill not be changing the rule set.
I think changing weather helps create unpredictability = more fun. Trying to take the randomness out of BB is a little bit silly and goes against the spirit of it. Basically I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want different weather, whether it's Khemri in the rain vs Woodies or whatever.
Not having weather rolls at crumb wouldn't stop me coming, it's the fact that you're there that stops me. Lol.

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by Glowworm »

@sillysod: no offence taken and none meant buddy.
@joe/Phil: thank you for your replies, you attend lots of tournaments and therefor have a wealth of experience between you, I just wondered if " outside influence" affected your decisions.
@matt: that hurt buddy, I've been nothing but kind to you, opened my home to you and that's the thanks I get.....well if you ever need a kidney you can look elsewhere, I'd rather give my "spare" to the dog! (or even Gazza)

I can see your point about weather, but of all the factors affecting teams at kickoff it's the one I have issue with, losing 3-4 players through no fault of your own is just a game killer IMHO. But thats just me, besides it gives me a chance to give Crumb it's own little niche...

So, in summary, nothing that affects the game mechanics, C/L, A/C, RR, should be offered as an incentive. Free FF? I assume that's ok? Modified Kickoff table? Also ok? Discount for early registration, fine, however race/ roster in advance not so good.

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mattwhile
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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by mattwhile »

glowworm wrote:@matt: that hurt buddy, I've been nothing but kind to you, opened my home to you and that's the thanks I get.....well if you ever need a kidney you can look elsewhere, I'd rather give my "spare" to the dog! (or even Gazza)
I need a Kebab rather than a Kidney.......... Lol

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by Joemanji »

glowworm wrote:@joe/Phil: thank you for your replies, you attend lots of tournaments and therefor have a wealth of experience between you, I just wondered if " outside influence" affected your decisions.
I do sometimes think about what other people are taking when I choose my own race. This doesn't have to be public knowledge, I talk to plenty of BBers off-forum and they might mention if they have decided on a race in advance. But after thinking about it (i.e. I might not want to take Lizards if Phil is using WEs), I always remember that I am unlikely to play 1 person in 30 anyway and just take what I want. So whilst I am aware of it, I don't let it change my decisions I don't think.

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by armydave »

lunchmoney wrote:Make of this what you will;

We played two test games last night, team A with 3AC&3CL and team B with none.
Game 1, team A won 3 RRs, but still lost the match 3-2, with no RRs left and team B with a RR to spare.
Game 2, team A won 2 RRs, won the match 3-1, but both teams had RRs left at the end.

Obviously two games is not a huge sample set, but it's a start. We will have more samples by Sunday evening.

Sorry Al but the number of RR's left at the end of the game doesn't tell the whole story. Being down to one RR makes you play in a different way, even letting turnovers go so you can save the RR for an ''important'' fail.

And if Game 2 was me v ddark then player B had no RR's left at the end of the game and was deperate for a RR on turn 14.

The idea of an early bird bonus feels like a penalty for people that can not commit to an event in advance. Especially for (in the most recent incident) 60k's worth team rating, which in league play could be used to induce a babe or a star player or even a bribe. I know this thread isn't specifically about the Exiles tournament, but if this wasn't my local event then I wouldn't bother paying to attend with a 60k handicap.

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by scs.sam »

Ok well I have returned home now and have the interweb again and have just read pages of the worms that inadvertantly spilled out on the Exiles thread.

I had said I would comment on how much an effect the loss of stuff had on my games but it seems superfluous and also it turns out Ogres with a chef are shit and do not work I could have been 120k up on everyone else and I still would have ended up in a spoon off - I did better at Chelmford Bunkerbowl in 2012 with a 16 snotling lineup.
armydave wrote:the number of RR's left at the end of the game doesn't tell the whole story.
No it doesn't Dave and I noticed in our game you lost all the 6's and 8's and my heart would have been bleeding for you if you hadn't killed all my players.
lunchmoney wrote: Lets try to steer this to a positive thing :D
So to the idea of a way to prompt people to pay and register early.

The idea of an "on pitch" advantage is clearly causing a lot of people anguish. So what would you suggest?
So prompted by the excellent suggestion above these are my ideas none of which have game or financial penaltys :

(1) A raffle for BB related models and stuff - bigger tournament more prizes. The first person to pay gets say ten tickets the second nine tickets and so on with everyone getting a ticket except the last person. Then everyone who submits their Race and team name to the TO gets an additional ticket. Finally submit your roster in time for a further ticket. So the earlier you pay the more chance you have of winning cool stuff.

(2) Only really for the bigger tournaments but the cheap accommodation offer is an excellent idea if it can be wrangled - It worked very well at the GT's this year IMO.

(3) Food - Imagine Cakebowl but only the quick of the mark get to nom on the cakes. So the first person to pay gets to select the first cake from the tasty selection and so on. This would need to have some cakes which are better than others or bigger to be a proper incentive but I think you get the idea.

(4) Getting to choose your own team name. A popular trend in the west is to change coaches team names so maybe you only get to choose your own team's name if you are in the first 50% to pay or submit your roster. This probably would be a small incentive to pay but could be used for the rosters maybe alongside something else.

These are my ideas so far I'm sure that people with more imagination can come up with some more ideas.

On a seperate note the issue that is more key is the reason why the Early Bird idea has been birthed in the first place - running a tournament is very expensive and venues often require at least a deposit up front.
Now I don't know how it works but is there someway that the naf could assist TO's with this?
I realise that there would need to be rules about who and for what purpose when deciding who would be eligible for financial assistance but if the long running tournaments like Thrud for example could get a loan from the naf funds until the tournament has played out surely that would make the TO's life a lot easier.
In fact with a scheme like that available we could well see more tournaments on the calendar as more people may be prepared to organise a tournament. More tournaments would be beneficial to everyone IMO.

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by sann0638 »

Sam for president!

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by Darkson »

I like the NAF loan idea - could be an excellent use the the mountain* of cash the NAF's sitting on.
Obviously there'd have to be proper rules etc.


*Mountain for a "not for profit" organization that should have nearly zero cash reserve, not mountain as in the EU's GNP.

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by Glowworm »

Darkson wrote:I like the NAF loan idea - could be an excellent use the the mountain* of cash the NAF's sitting on.
Obviously there'd have to be proper rules etc.
+1

I assume some sort of interest free loan agreement would have to be used with T.Os agreeing to pay back the entire amount.

I also think there should be some criteria as to who could make use of this, perhaps a minimum length of membership prior to being eligable? ( 12 months perhaps)

Not good on the "Sam for president" idea TBH tho!

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by scs.sam »

glowworm wrote:I assume some sort of interest free loan agreement would have to be used with T.Os agreeing to pay back the entire amount.

I also think there should be some criteria as to who could make use of this, perhaps a minimum length of membership prior to being eligable? ( 12 months perhaps)
Thats exactly what I was suggesting but put somewhat more eloquently.
glowworm wrote:Not good on the "Sam for president" idea TBH tho!
Well I would imagine you would prefer me to be the King of the NAF wouldn't you :P

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by Darkson »

I had "Merciless Overlord" personally. ;)

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by SillySod »

Darkson wrote:I like the NAF loan idea.
I don't!

Moderate financial risk is part and parcel of organizing a tournament.

On the one hand it would be nice if tournaments required no capital and organizers never lost any money. That would definitely be a good thing. However...

There is a flip side to that. The NAF would lose money. Granted, the NAF is a large and faceless organization that can probably afford to lose the money without anyone's child going hungry but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is fair for it to shoulder the financial burden. Personally I would far rather that those funds were put towards something that is either more exciting (a statue of Lycos at a minor landmark in Australia!) or likely to benefit a larger portion of subscribers.

---

I'm also worried that, by removing the risk of personal loss, tournament organizers wouldn't budget as carefully as they currently do. Thus you would get more events dipping into the red (and draining NAF funds). People are naturally optimistic and it is very extremely super easy to over-estimate the chances of selling a certain number of tickets/boards/figures/whatever. The threat of losing money works as a neat balance to counteract this optimistic inclination so I'm not at all comfortable about taking that threat away!

---

I wouldn't be opposed to large events receiving loans from the NAF but these are already well handled by the current system (the NAF runs the biggest tournaments directly).

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by Darkson »

Hence the "proper set of rules". :roll:
I don't think anyone was suggesting that Lycos sit in a carpark doling out brown envelopes of cash.
SillySod wrote:(the NAF runs the biggest tournaments directly).
It runs two big events - the rest aren't NAF-run.

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by SillySod »

Darkson wrote:Hence the "proper set of rules". :roll:
I don't think anyone was suggesting that Lycos sit in a carpark doling out brown envelopes of cash.
I can't envision a set of rules that would achieve the following:

a) protect event organizers from financial risk

b) protect the NAF from careless or optimistic organizers

Also:

Fraud can probably be ignored as an issue in the UK (it exists but isn't prevalent). Would it be a non-issue in other countries too?

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Re: Early Bird bonus for tournaments

Post by Glowworm »

SillySod wrote: I can't envision a set of rules that would achieve the following:

a) protect event organizers from financial risk

b) protect the NAF from careless or optimistic organizers .
A.There would still be "moderate financial risk" I invisage each organiser signing an agreement to pay back the full amount within a set period, so if I (for example) overspend then I have to pay it all back....

B. What agreement protected the NAF when it funded the WCII? Or the Spike trophy which I believe they assisted in the purchase of? Not that i have issue with either but there must have been some sort of written "Contract" or did the NAF just hand over a large(ish) lump of cash?

Also:
SillySod wrote: Fraud can probably be ignored as an issue in the UK (it exists but isn't prevalent). Would it be a non-issue in other countries too?
Thats a pretty sweeping statement, am i to assume your implying that the UK is more honest than the rest of the world? Or that NAF officials in other countries are more likely to be open to bribery??

C'mon Pete, thats not the sort of statement Id expect from you.

lets be honest, this is just not going to happen, Ill go to Wonga for my funding for next years Crumb-bowl :wink:

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