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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:35 am 
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Itchen Masack wrote:
May I ask if anyone knows how many tourneys have been won by inferior w-d-l records? Have seen mention of a few from the past but not sure if I've ever been to one myself. Never noticed if I have :)

it happen several times at EuroBowl, or at other team events, due to the fact, the ranking is not done directly on the w-d-l of the team himself.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:43 am 
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mawph wrote:
This has been touched upon already :) Both football and Rugby (both quite popular and significant global sports)


Yes by me for one in my OP :D I don;t see what goes on in Rugby or football as remotely analogous to what goes on in BB. I already said what we could do in BB that would be analogous to rugby I'll not repeat it for the 3rd time. Let me just say nothing in rugby is analalogous to points for TD and points for CAS. In football you are talking about tiebreakers - different ways to split people on the same points in leagues or different ways to split people on the same goals in a knock out competition. Although that latter one has pretty much standardised again (after a period of experimentation) back to 30 mins extra time plus penalties. There is some variation in how to apply away goals in 2 leg knockout competitions but again I would say that is tiebreaker variation.

Sorry I thought it was clear - talking about daft 'bonus' points. Lots of sports using equivalents of 2/1/0 plus variable tiebreaker - which is why I think it should be standard for us too.

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Last edited by Greshvakk on Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:51 am 
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babass wrote:
Itchen Masack wrote:
May I ask if anyone knows how many tourneys have been won by inferior w-d-l records? Have seen mention of a few from the past but not sure if I've ever been to one myself. Never noticed if I have :)

it happen several times at EuroBowl, or at other team events, due to the fact, the ranking is not done directly on the w-d-l of the team himself.


I can only remember one I didn't win with the best record, Toy Soldier, I think to Jim.

Perhaps a more common issue though is when it screws up the Swiss. A tournament winner may end up beating coaches with high BPs, but less good records, rather than the (likely) tougher game of a coach with low BPs, but a good record.


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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:57 am 
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mubo wrote:
Perhaps a more common issue though is when it screws up the Swiss.


Exactly. Even if you wanted to you couldn't take a list of tournament winners and look at the results to see who 'should' have won using 2/1/0 because you don't actually know because the matchups got messed with.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:58 am 
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mubo wrote:
Perhaps a more common issue though is when it screws up the Swiss. A tournament winner may end up beating coaches with high BPs, but less good records, rather than the (likely) tougher game of a coach with low BPs, but a good record.


Been there, and it did take a lot of the gloss off winning. Bonus points can be a bit of a plague here in Australia too.


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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:40 am 
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Greshvakk wrote:
I have a question also: does anyone know of any sport or board game or whatever where the scoring is not standard? As I write this it occurs to me Golf has some variety although that's a hard one to make comparisons with. Just curious what examples people know of.


Ski Jumping
Biathlon
Ice Skating
Bicycling at some events
Weightlifting



and by the way, the 2015 RTTNAFC had used the 2/1/1 system, no bonus points and the the only coach who was 6/0/0 did not win the tourney, but straume won on a 5/1/0+OT-win

my personal opinion: a coach with 5/1/0 record including two wins against Stunty teams does NOT earn the trophy more than a coach with 4/2/0 record, who tied against a killer-Undead team/"cheater"-Woodelf team and the coach with the 5/1/0 record in the final.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:56 pm 
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It's already been pointed out to me offline that mine was a pants question. Which I agree with. I think when you are talking about things like cycling or weightlifting its the different classifications (Madison vs sprints vs keirin) you mean which, to me would be like Blood bowl vs street bowl vs another variation (not that I know what Street bowl is!). But the question contains too much interpretation of what is variety, what is good variety and what is the 'equivalents' to what goes on in BB. In so far as I had a point I think it has already been made better in the thread anyway so let's move on.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:17 pm 
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For cycling I was actually referring to the biggest and most prestigious event: The Tour de France. I'm not sure if they have chanced that during the last years, but there was a time when you won an intermediate sprint you gained extra seconds, which I believe is very much a good equivalent to BP....anyway: Let's move on.


Quoting Wikipedia:
Quote:
Time bonuses of 10, 6 and 4 seconds are awarded to the first three finishers, though this was not done from 2008 to 2014.[93] Bonuses were previously also awarded to winners of intermediate sprints.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:27 am 
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I think the NAF could discuss the value of their Trophy and whether they want to make changes now or just continue as is until the new edition is released. Tournaments will still happen whether sanctioned or not, Reading this thread has been interesting and although swayed by different arguments I don't believe they need to make changes. As far as TOs are concerned, they are free to do what they like "just because" I don't have a problem with that.

I don't have a problem with change either, I do have a problem with the internet though so please if you see me becoming involved in another debate please feel free to kindly remind me that I have gone down similar paths in the past (here and other websites). Whether I'm right or wrong it doesn't matter, I just want to play BloodBowl and meet some new people.

Just for the record, Joemanji frogs don't drink milk, we drink Guinness. So feel free to share a glass with me if your ever lucky enough (Bonus points permitting) to draw me in round 1, despite the hype I would love to play you or any of the coaches I look up to, you have a great record so it will attract a lot of attention, because people like me look at things like that and wonder how to get better. So don't listen to the comments about powergamer, your a great coach!

Greshvakk, Its true I didn't like reading some of your posts and I tried to point that out to you. That's my opinion, maybe I read it wrong maybe not.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:09 pm 
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frogboy wrote:
I think the NAF could discuss the value of their Trophy and whether they want to make changes now or just continue as is until the new edition is released. Tournaments will still happen whether sanctioned or not, Reading this thread has been interesting and although swayed by different arguments I don't believe they need to make changes. As far as TOs are concerned, they are free to do what they like "just because" I don't have a problem with that.

I don't have a problem with change either, I do have a problem with the internet though so please if you see me becoming involved in another debate please feel free to kindly remind me that I have gone down similar paths in the past (here and other websites). Whether I'm right or wrong it doesn't matter, I just want to play BloodBowl and meet some new people.

Just for the record, Joemanji frogs don't drink milk, we drink Guinness. So feel free to share a glass with me if your ever lucky enough (Bonus points permitting) to draw me in round 1, despite the hype I would love to play you or any of the coaches I look up to, you have a great record so it will attract a lot of attention, because people like me look at things like that and wonder how to get better. So don't listen to the comments about powergamer, your a great coach!

Greshvakk, Its true I didn't like reading some of your posts and I tried to point that out to you. That's my opinion, maybe I read it wrong maybe not.

Dionysian, "Alone a youth runs fast, with an elder he travels slowly but together they go far"



who hacked your account Frogboy?

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:21 pm 
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As someone who has written the rules for Boudica Bowl 4 years in a row, and used bonus points for each, I'll give an answer to the original topic.

First off, bias cards on the table: I like bonus points. Reasons have been given by other people but they give you something to play for even after the game is lost.

Another reason, especially for our tournament: our league is very fluffy and the style of the league is very much based around what would be termed "bad play". People don't often stall, people do pass, we have fun and play the game in a particular way. For our tournament, the bonus points system fits in with what our league players do... and we wanted to encourage as many of our league (most of whom are not tournament players) to come along and have fun as possible.

After seeing this discussion come up again, I've run some numbers on our point scoring system (10/5/1 for W/D/L, with up to +3 on TDs and Cas). So far I've compared it against the glowing standard of 2/1/0 with opponent score as tiebreaker. Interestingly enough: in 2 of the 4 years, the winner would have been different. But purely on tiebreaker... in fact over 4 years, the biggest change of position was 5 places (from 28 coaches attending). And its been very rare that someone gained/dropped positions above/below where they should have been using 2/1/0 with no bonus... I realise there is a difference because of the way Swiss works when calculating match-ups, so an exact comparison of results cannot be done, but in general our points system has done exactly what is wanted: crowned a winner with the best W/D/L record (albeit with different tiebreakers giving different placings), whilst letting our club coaches enjoy themselves at a tournament they may otherwise not have attended - case in point: we've had 2 local coaches not make it a couple of years because of clashes with other non-BB events, whereas we've had more and more local coaches attending each time we've run it.

PS: to get past any questions of bias: 3 years of 4 I would have dropped 1 place on 2/1/0, one year I would have been 4 places higher. So I come out about evens...

PPS: in light of these discussions, and the analysis I've done, there may be a change to our scoring system next year. I need to look into what I can do with Score but I may look into doing pure W/D/L each round to get the match-ups, then keeping our points system at the end for the final placings... but I need to fully consider any effects this may have.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:24 pm 
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Just to dip in briefly...

I think it’s great that this discussion is happening. It seems to be making TOs consider the implications of their scoring systems a little more, for all levels of competitiveness / all types of player.

Earlier I mooted the suggestion of the UK NTC group recommending primacy of W/D/L for tiebreak and bonus point systems. Perhaps that’s not a good path to take after all (not my decision for sure!), but at least we’re thinking about it a bit.

It appears UK BB is a place where we can discuss these things sensibly after all. Good show!

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:47 pm 
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Sandwich wrote:
PPS: in light of these discussions, and the analysis I've done, there may be a change to our scoring system next year. I need to look into what I can do with Score but I may look into doing pure W/D/L each round to get the match-ups, then keeping our points system at the end for the final placings... but I need to fully consider any effects this may have.


I really don't recommend having one system for working out the match-ups and another for deciding who wins. Have been involved in that sort of scenario and the following happened: last round, there are only two players in contention to win the event, and because the match-up system was different they didn't get to play each other.


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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:59 am 
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I think you need to explain this more or provide an example.
I don't see how this could happen for the example sandwich wrote.
Yes I think it is very theoretical possible that in the end of a tourney place 1 and place 2 in the final standings did not play each other, but that is independent of using tiebreakers for the match ups or matching up pure on w/d/l.
But a situation where only two players are in the race for the tournament win before the last game and they did not play each other, this seems to be impossible for such a system.
But perhaps I did not think it through to the end, hence an example would help.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:48 pm 
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Thanks for the contribution Sandwich, interesting read - a good insight into one TO's logic. And thanks for having a think about the implications. As I am sure you can see from the thread I think that maintaining the W-D-L primacy is fairest so I'd urge you to look at other ways to encourage the club members to attend perhaps starting by asking them if the BPs really account for their attendance. Personally (and I am biased!) I can't see that scoring via 2-1-0 with tiebreaker would lose attendance - I think if all tournaments had the same skill/roster rules then we would lose attendance from boredom but I don't see it with the scoring. That said I definitely wouldn't want someone to lose attendance and you know your club better than me! But anyway thanks again for thinking about the issues and pondering how to make things work best for your tournament.

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