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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:04 pm 
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Hi Greshvakk,

Maybe I can help with your question to Sandwich. I organised Boudica IV this year and Sarnie wrote the rules which were a variant on what we have had previous years. The main change WAS the skill allocation and team build options to make the tournament slightly different to the others placed in the calendar (especially those close to our tournament date wise and also in location - STABB, Bunker Bowl etc.) and to encourage different teams/builds to be taken.

Onto your question "Why give bonus points?" - well for me there are 3 answers which made me think of using them for Boudica IV (these are my opinion and not a reflection on the team at HDWSBBL/Boudica Bowl)

1) They worked for us as a tie breaker. Simply put as Sandwich highlighted. In our case they have never affected who won or came in the top 3 of Boudica Bowl. We then used strength of schedule to break the tie further and if you still are tied we have a nice game of pin the tail on the donkey - look at the rule pack it's there. We always endorsed that bonus points shouldn't overshadow the W/D/L record of any coach.

2) Personally I like the idea of encouraging open and action packed game play. Rewarding play where you're encouraged to score more than 1 TD and to cause as much damage fits the fluff of BB to me and the fluff is what got me into the game in the first place. In that case I added them to try and promote that way of playing.

3) As Sandwich pointed out our league is not an "Elite" league we don't have a Joemanji, Jimjimany, Geggster etc etc in the league currently (We did have Purplegoo for a season and he won the league with a 13-0-0 record and a lot of those games by more than 2 TDs). Our coaches (with a few exceptions) will not normally challenge an average tournament player who attends a tourney every 2 to 4 weeks. In this case having something to play for when you're 2-0 down is a good thing. If they can get a few points for causing Cas by whatever method it keeps them invested in the game and keeps a smile on faces. In this case it's better than having a few players always winning 1-0 or 2-0 and the rest being hacked off as they can't get any points at their club's tournament. At the end of the day Blood Bowl is a game. Not life and death. Not your career. Not something close to really important. It's a game. I'd rather people have as much fun as possible at my tournament.

Those are the reasons why I used bonus points in Boudica IV. For right or wrong we ran a good tournament with them and I hope that Boudica bowl continues for years to come with whatever scoring system the organisers choose to use.

As a note: I know how some people will react to the last statement in point 3 and I appreciate why. I mean no offense from the "it's only a game" statement. I understand for the "Elite" players this is their primary hobby and they want to be tested at the highest level of the game like chess (so would I if I was any good at it!). Playing very strategically is incredibly important at that level of the game and due to that a 1-0 win should be rewarded as much as a 3-0 win with SoS being the tiebreaker. For this reason I am not in favour of bonus points at the large tournaments (NAFC, Spike, Dungeonbowl, UKTC etc) as for these tournaments I want to see a champion crowned because they are the best there and beat the best players on a W/D/L record only.

This seems a bit contradictory to my reasons for using the bonus points at Boudica IV above but for me there is a difference from a local tournament and a large national/international tournament. In the community there should be room for both types of scoring systems.

I hope that clarifies it a bit.

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Last edited by TheDoc on Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:40 pm 
The Glow-Father
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I have a question for you Greshvakk, and Im not being confrontational, just wondering....

Do you currently or have you ran a tournament ? If so what points system did you use and what tie breakers where in place?

(Sorry if this has been answered already in the thread, I have read most of it but didn't see an answer)

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:19 pm 
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glowworm wrote:
Do you currently or have you ran a tournament?


No I haven't. When I started this thread I had no preferred scoring system (I just thought points for TDs and points for cas had implications people might not have thought of) but after all the thought that the thread has stimulated I now realise that if I did run a tournament I would use 2-1-0 plus tiebreaker because unlike bonus point systems it would a) guarantee w-d-l primacy and b) not mess with the Swiss. To me that is the fairest and therefore best system - although as has been pointed out on this thread it's not perfect, particularly using a tiebreaker which is always unsatisfactory imo - if we had the time I'm sure we'd rather the top positions played off but it's just not practical and even if they did what happens if they're drawing after overtime!?

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:30 pm 
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Gresh i feel like what your after is a BP system thats stops players W/D/L record being shadowed by a TD and CAS system.
e.g Win 100p, Draw 50p, loss 0p- up to a max of 3 of TD and CAS. so each round has up to 6 bonus points in a 6 game tournament you are playing for at best 36 BP so it never diminishes a Draw or Win. i think unless this happens all the people that are against BP will continue to disagree with it. (I do know Gresh we play at the same club and have played team tournaments together so people know, Gresh please correct me if im wrong)

I also have to say I dont think TO's are trying to achieve anything, there is no hidden engender in trying to diminish or sully the good name of blood bowl or trying to make people feel cheated and robbed. they are trying to make an event often individual to stand out in their rule set that they think people will find fun. i thing that main point is getting lost a bit in both this chat and the one viewtopic.php?f=34&t=42718
From talking TO's to them want to try and make people think outside the box change up there teams skill packages and set new challenges to change the way people play. (im not a TO i hope to be one day)

I try and attend a mix of both SoS and BP tourneys each year they keep the game fresh for me. SoS makes me grind and I will sit in my cage letting the turns tick by if it insures a win. BP i will keep pushing to score, turn over and repeat.
i think people should look at them as 2 very different things as the game is different. I also understand that people feel that getting CAS is a lottery but most skills packs offer a double consider MB to increase your chances of getting CAS on that elf team. most heavy bash teams will struggle to score 3 TD in game so an all guard grind might not help. my point is BP might make you think differently about the game it does me for me thats what it achieves.

i also think this question doesn't have a solution unless its enforced which is what i hope the NAF is not planning on doing as we are a big community but i fear not so big that we should start enforcing loads of new rules on how people should run tournaments they have spent time and effort doing for people to have fun.


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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:39 pm 
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Thanks TheDoc for another very interesting insight into the reasoning. I totally see your points and respect them. I suppose my 2 responses would be:

1) you seem to value the w-d-l primacy as being the best/fairest way of crowning a winner. I agree but wrongly calibrated bonus points systems will always run the risk of crowning the 'wrong' winner by w-d-l and personally I'd never want to risk that. Although obviously it's great that it hasn't happened at Boudicca bowl how will you feel if it does?

2) as for giving people something to play for I'm not sure how people really play for td and cas any more than they already do. I prefer the approach of imaginative awards for other aspects of gameplay
Edit - note as I write this that Yogi has posted saying he adjusts his play style based on scoring systems so perhaps people feel they can - I'm still not sure you actually can play for td and cas any more than you would do but if people feel you can then maybe that is something.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:44 pm 
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yogi wrote:

I also have to say I dont think TO's are trying to achieve anything, there is no hidden engender in trying to diminish or sully the good name of blood bowl or trying to make people feel cheated and robbed.


Whoa - what? I don't think they have any sneaky agenda either! I just thought they might not have thought about the implications of their scoring systems. I still haven't heard anyone tell me why a 3-3 draw > 2-2 draw > 1-1 > 0-0 - but that is what points for TDs does.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:53 pm 
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Greshvakk wrote:
yogi wrote:

I also have to say I dont think TO's are trying to achieve anything, there is no hidden engender in trying to diminish or sully the good name of blood bowl or trying to make people feel cheated and robbed.


Whoa - what? I don't think they have any sneaky agenda either! I just thought they might not have thought about the implications of their scoring systems. I still haven't heard anyone tell me why a 3-3 draw > 2-2 draw > 1-1 > 0-0 - but that is what points for TDs does.

ok that was my bad in my wording there. also i know thats not what your saying by pulling that one bit out puts what i mean out of context.


Last edited by yogi on Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:55 pm 
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yogi wrote:
i also think this question doesn't have a solution unless its enforced which is what i hope the NAF is not planning on doing as we are a big community but i fear not so big that we should start enforcing loads of new rules on how people should run tournaments they have spent time and effort doing for people to have fun.


I disagree. As has been pointed out on the thread already the NAF could set standards or guidelines it doesn't mean every tournament has to be run that way - no one is suggesting 'rules' as such. I must admit after all the thought this thread has stimulated I think the NAF should have standards for scoring systems. The NAF td is on this thread stating that the NAF sanctioning is there partly to protect the quality of NAF rankings - well if someone scored a tournament with points for cas only I don't think it is fair that those games are ranked alongside 'normally' scored tournament games. Why? Because if you place no value at all on TDs then to me you are not playing blood bowl or at least not the same Bb as at something like the nafc. I think this shows the need for NAF standards but what form those should take would still need to be decided.

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Last edited by Greshvakk on Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:09 pm 
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I have to say your "standard or guidelines" Gresh that you would hope the naf sets out, if they would to ever do so, would not include BP tournaments. this thread sounds like thats what your gunning for...


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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:20 pm 
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yogi wrote:
Gresh i feel like what your after is a BP system thats stops players W/D/L record being shadowed by a TD and CAS system.


All I was after was to stimulate some thought on the subject and it has been amazing how much has been stimulated. What you describe here is a bp scoring system calibrated to protect w-d-l - I think that's better than one calibrated to not protect w-d-l but still not better than 2-1-0 plus tiebreaker (in my opinion). You're still ranking draws and wins in a v. strange way with a system like that eg 3-0 = 3-2 but both are better than 2-0 - to me that's not intuitive. Also I don't get the arbitrary cap at 3 - if you are giving points for TDs and cas why stop at 3? Particularly if your system is calibrated to protect w-d-l anyway.

But as I say I was just trying to stimulate some thought and there are several brilliant interlinking subjects here: w-d-l primacy and is it fairest?, messing with Swiss, implications of ANY bp system, implications of points for TDs and points for cas specifically, calibration of bonus points, need for variety in tournaments and quite a few more! So it's been very rewarding for me to read.

But if I wrote it again I might rephrase the question since it has been pointed out it can be read with an emphasis on the 'you' - which I didn't intend. What are YOU trying to achieve is a lot more accusatory than I ever meant. I meant something along the lines of 'why did you adopt this system over 2-1-0'? But in my defence there's not much space in a thread title, I didn't realise it would get all this attention, I hadn't thought that much about scoring systems and I didn't read it with an emphasis on the bloody you! :D

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Last edited by Greshvakk on Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:29 pm 
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yogi wrote:
. this thread sounds like thats what your gunning for...


this thread has mutated way beyond what I ever envisaged so I can honestly say I wasn't gunning for anything of the sort when I wrote it. After all the thinking I've now done I think there is a need for NAF standards on scoring and there should be some intelligent discussion about what those should be. Perhaps someone can start a thread on that - personally I'm not going to.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:37 pm 
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Greshvakk wrote:
yogi wrote:
. this thread sounds like thats what your gunning for...


this thread has mutated way beyond what I ever envisaged so I can honestly say I wasn't gunning for anything of the sort when I wrote it. After all the thinking I've now done I think there is a need for NAF standards on scoring and there should be some intelligent discussion about what those should be. Perhaps someone can start a thread on that - personally I'm not going to.

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:38 pm 
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Greshvakk wrote:
Thanks TheDoc for another very interesting insight into the reasoning. I totally see your points and respect them. I suppose my 2 responses would be:

1) you seem to value the w-d-l primacy as being the best/fairest way of crowning a winner. I agree but wrongly calibrated bonus points systems will always run the risk of crowning the 'wrong' winner by w-d-l and personally I'd never want to risk that. Although obviously it's great that it hasn't happened at Boudicca bowl how will you feel if it does?

2) as for giving people something to play for I'm not sure how people really play for td and cas any more than they already do. I prefer the approach of imaginative awards for other aspects of gameplay
Edit - note as I write this that Yogi has posted saying he adjusts his play style based on scoring systems so perhaps people feel they can - I'm still not sure you actually can play for td and cas any more than you would do but if people feel you can then maybe that is something.


Answers: 1) It won't happen at Boudica Bowl. The scoring system is designed not to let BPs affect the W/D/L placing of the highest place coaches. Sarnie and I made it so the probability of it happening is so low I'd win the Euro Millions before it happens. IF it did ever happen I'd blame myself and Sarnie that we didn't create a system that was robust to deal with a player who wins 6-0-0 and scores 6 TDs for the entire tournament and not end as champion. We'd re-evaluate the rules and results as we do for all the Boudica Bowls and then change the rules accordingly for the next year. However, I will add all coaches would have known the scoring when they signed up and in signing up agreed to play by the rules we set out. Don't complain if they don't suit you when the chips finally fall - be an adult and take some responsibility that you didn't do what was required to be placed appropriately.

2) We did also have spot-prizes for various actions throughout the game which was opened to all to promote "whacky" elements of Blood Bowl.

Yogi Note reply: depends on how good a coach you are ;)

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:01 pm 
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Time to poke the nest - I have been generating random results of tournaments using my spreadsheet, and "inferior" records are winning a LOT of the time.

In particular, using the popular major win/minor win system, a 4/2/0 can beat a 5/1/0 easily if the 4 wins are major, and the 5 wins are minor. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:05 pm 
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I don't think there is any agenda here.... hidden or otherwise, just a guy asking a question, so can I ask is a 1-0 win really a better game (in general terms) than a 3-3 draw??

probably my 2 most memorable games where 3-3 V Nazgob (My Gobbo's his dirty cheaty Flings) and a 0-2 loss to dwarves where I was pitch cleared twice in the same match!!

I know the "purists" will say yes 1-0 is better and strictly speaking they are right,

I do like the 300/100/0 W/D/L system with up to 6 BP's per match..... may use that at Crumb next year if it runs.

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