UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Discuss teams, ride/hotel sharing, trash talk, and event results here

Moderators: lunchmoney, TFF Mods

Post Reply
User avatar
frogboy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:20 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by frogboy »

Wulfyn wrote:frog, do you think this should only be a discussion amongst those who have won or got close to winning a tournament?
There already is a discussion in other places, check the thread, amongst them who make decisions.

But to answer your question, i've already discussed parts here and I am no closer to Gashvakk to winning a shield. I just found it funny that he's so passionate about something and willing to question people's integrity on the subject that won't even effect him/us.

Reason: ''
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.
User avatar
Joemanji
Power Gamer
Posts: 9508
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:08 pm
Location: ECBBL, London, England

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Joemanji »

Yeah! How dare he start a reasonable debate with people who admit they hadn't even considered the consequences of their actions? Down with this kind of thing! We don't want your beakers here, what's wrong with just lapping water out your hands like a cat?

Reason: ''
*This post may have been made without the use of a hat.
Itchen Masack
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1390
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Itchen Masack »

Sometimes it's nice being the cat.

Sneak out during the night and leave something in the neighbours yard. It's a liberating experience.

Reason: ''
Image
User avatar
Dionysian
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:01 pm

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Dionysian »

frogboy wrote: I just found it funny that he's so passionate about something and willing to question people's integrity on the subject that won't even effect him/us.
We've talked about this before, but whether or not it affects you is entirely up to you. No-one is born magically possessing the Blood Bowl chops to win tournaments. It’s a skill game, albeit one with a short-term luck component similar to, say, poker. If you put the effort in to improve your game then you increase your odds of winning each match, and consequently each tournament.

If someone doesn’t want to put the effort in that’s completely fine too. Blood Bowl is still lots of fun when the player isn't particularly good at it. Everyone reaches their own level where they are happy with their current ability vs their willingness to put the effort in to get better.

However, where things get particularly insidious is the notion that a person who doesn’t care enough about the quality of his play to work towards earning a title, should still be entitled to an excellent shot at being crowned the winner of a competitive event, that it is somehow a good thing to design rulesets in a way deliberately targeted at turning the winner’s trophy into a semi-random participation trophy.

An ‘elite tournament winners’ circle seeking to ‘keep out the plebs’ as intimated earlier in the thread is nonsense. Anyone can gain entry to this mystical circle simply by earning it on merit.

I have no idea of Gresh’s situation, support network, or inclination to improve, but purely based on his keenness for fair competition displayed in this thread I’d say he has an excellent chance of developing into a formidable tournament player if he chooses to do so.

Reason: ''
User avatar
frogboy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:20 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by frogboy »

Whatever!

Reason: ''
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.
Itchen Masack
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1390
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Itchen Masack »

May I ask if anyone knows how many tourneys have been won by inferior w-d-l records? Have seen mention of a few from the past but not sure if I've ever been to one myself. Never noticed if I have :)

Reason: ''
Image
Greshvakk
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:12 am

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Greshvakk »

I have a question also: does anyone know of any sport or board game or whatever where the scoring is not standard? As I write this it occurs to me Golf has some variety although that's a hard one to make comparisons with. Just curious what examples people know of.

Reason: ''
Image
Itchen Masack
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1390
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Itchen Masack »

Off the top of my head both cricket and rugby offer bonus points in some formats, presumably to make the matches more exciting rather than just grinding victories or to reward total domination by one team?

Football leagues/cups also dont all follow the same rules for tie breaks, but not sure if that is your question. Many a time have I been confused by World Cup groupings where they certainly don't use goal difference like the Premier League!

'away goals' too I guess. Some cups use them, some dont. And more controversially some use them after extra time.

Reason: ''
Image
User avatar
Dionysian
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:01 pm

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Dionysian »

Oh, no one heard the news about the changes made for Euro 2016? They're making wins worth 10 pts and draws 5 in the group stages, but teams also get two additional pts per corner they're awarded. Should be much better fun for everyone, as it gives Albania something to play for late on when they're being spanked by France.

Reason: ''
User avatar
Purplegoo
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2256
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:13 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Purplegoo »

The point is good enough that you don't need to bite, although I understand the exasperation. ;)

No-one, to the best of my knowledge, keeps a spreadsheet of what record has won what tournament. The 'lesser' record winning has happened often enough that it's a commonly debated and frustrating thing. I know it's a relatively recent few discussions on TFF, but that isn't to say it's not been going on for a long time. My first conversation with the (at the time) TD on the subject was in 2009, and I doubt that was the first time it was raised.

Rugby, being my thing, is indeed an example of a sport that awards bonus points. It's a sport that needs to keep thousands (millions) of spectators and sponsors happy by encouraging teams to go for it, making all eighty minutes (and the adverts within and after) 'interesting'. A lot of the fans hate it (being a Leicester supporter, a dour 3-0 win is like watching Brazil for me), and luckily, BB (as a strategy game played on a board, not a spectator sport) needs neither of those things. If Chess ever brings in as standard points for such things as each captured pawn to 'keep scoring varied', I should think I'll check for other signs of the apocalypse.

Reason: ''
Itchen Masack
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1390
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Itchen Masack »

Dio, not sure about your answer, but I'm assuming you assume I support Bonus Points? Not sure I've declared either way. Although as an aside I feel some of what you dont like about Bonus points actually works in reverse for Strength of Schedule - playing someone awful in round 1 and/or 2 can actually prevent someone from winning a tourney (as opposed to the 'Plum Draw' bonus)

Was merely answering Greshvakk where he's enquired if there are games/sports that dont use standard scoring. I suspect with the vast knowledge on TFF that many more could be highlighted. It's also likely very easy to point out how each is not like Blood Bowl. But I didnt see that as the question.

Reason: ''
Image
User avatar
Dionysian
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:01 pm

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Dionysian »

Itchen Masack wrote:Dio, not sure about your answer
Sorry, wasn't really directed at you. More a misbegotten attempt at humour/ screaming into the wind :wink:

There was a second paragraph too, but as soon as I hit submit I realised the tone had caught the wind and sailed far from the spot I meant it to land. Goo snuck in quickly with a reply (the bite comment confirming that the tone was wrong) and as I couldn't fix the tone properly I just deleted the paragraph.
Itchen Masack wrote: Although as an aside I feel some of what you dont like about Bonus points actually works in reverse for Strength of Schedule - playing someone awful in round 1 and/or 2 can actually prevent someone from winning a tourney (as opposed to the 'Plum Draw' bonus)
It's true that plum draws are likely to hurt your SoS. However, this is a good thing (for the tournament). Given that you have much greater equity in the available match points for that round with a 'plum draw' than you would have had in a tougher match-up, do you think it's fairer (for the rest of the players in the tournament) that the easier match hurts your tiebreaker score slightly, or that it should likely grant you a ton of extra points/tiebreaker on top of the juicy increased equity you're already gaining? I'm sure Goo and Joe (and probably several others) have covered this in more depth many times in various threads here.

I'll just add that I'm getting the sense that people are commonly overestimating the effect that a single opponent who finishes near the top or bottom of the table has on deciding SoS. You have 6 opponents throughout the weekend.

Reason: ''
Greshvakk
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:12 am

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Greshvakk »

A better way to put my question would be is there a sport or a competitive endeavour – eg a board game – which mucks around with the scoring in a way that is analogous to Blood Bowl? Which is to say sometimes using an equivalent of 2/1/0 plus tiebreaker and sometimes awarding points instead for 'elements of the game'. I don’t think there is but I’m willing to be corrected. Sorry my original is far too general and open to interpretation.

Where I am going with it is that lots of people talk about the lost variety if scoring was standardised by the NAF but I just don’t see we lose anything by doing the normal thing (as I see it). You just lose what we have: gimmicky systems with no clear point and where the impact is not known by the competitors or the TOs.

The examples from sport I think only highlight how stupid points for TD and points for CAS are and how unlike real, working bonus point systems they are. Which is why I talked about Rugby in the OP. I think if the only bonus point systems in BB were one point for winning by more than X margin and one point for losing by 1 TD – they would generate a lot less controversy. Because then when an inferior record won (as it still could depending on your calibration) you could see why: he had more big victories and/or tight losses. I am not saying I support that over 2/1/0 plus a tiebreaker just saying it is better because it has some clear logic. If you calibrated it properly it could also just be a proper tiebreaker and not mess with W>D>L.

But let me narrow the question: is there anything out there which has analogous scoring systems to BB? And a situation where there is no standardisation - note even our 'standard UK' bonus point system is being used slightly different at different tournaments for no obvious rationale. And finally which is more popular than BB I guess – I’m not interested in the scoring rules of some bonkers game played by 4 people on the Shetland isles!

Reason: ''
Image
mawph
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 815
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:37 pm

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by mawph »

Greshvakk wrote:A better way to put my question would be is there a sport or a competitive endeavour – eg a board game – which mucks around with the scoring in a way that is analogous to Blood Bowl? Which is to say sometimes using an equivalent of 2/1/0 plus tiebreaker and sometimes awarding points instead for 'elements of the game'. I don’t think there is but I’m willing to be corrected. Sorry my original is far too general and open to interpretation.
This has been touched upon already :) Both football and Rugby (both quite popular and significant global sports) do this and quite regularly at that.
Rugby the best example as in this current season there are different scoring systems in the major league tournaments. Some with bonus points, some without (I suspect maybe different tiebreakers too, but can say for certain).
Football is slightly different, as it might be only the tiebreaker which varies in the current season. However the method of winning the individual game does differ between different competitions (which is an even bigger can of worms than how the placings are sorted out!). Also there are different conditions between competitions (instant replays, goalline technology etc.) which would equate to changes in the fundamental core ruleset if we relate this to bloodbowl (a bloodbowl example of which would be a tournament of dungeonbowl games, not bloodbowl games).

Reason: ''
Image
Blackshirt Hunter Extraordinaire (2004)
Fish out of water (Waterbowl 2012)
Winner Thrud 2019!
babass
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:05 pm

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by babass »

Itchen Masack wrote:May I ask if anyone knows how many tourneys have been won by inferior w-d-l records? Have seen mention of a few from the past but not sure if I've ever been to one myself. Never noticed if I have :)
it happen several times at EuroBowl, or at other team events, due to the fact, the ranking is not done directly on the w-d-l of the team himself.

Reason: ''
Image
Post Reply