UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Discuss teams, ride/hotel sharing, trash talk, and event results here

Moderators: lunchmoney, TFF Mods

Post Reply
Greshvakk
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:12 am

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Greshvakk »

Darkson wrote:
Greshvakk in the SoS thread wrote:But to me the battle - and I can't believe it is a battle - is getting buy in that we should 100% respect the W-D-L record by dropping bonus points and using 2/1/0 with a tiebreaker.
Well, for as long as I'm running an event(s) you're not going to get 100%, as I won't be using that system.
That was pretty clear already. Nice of you to completely rule it out without any justification for the system you are using and without dealing with any of the issues raised about this system. The fact that you are a moderator for this site is the icing on the cake. You've felt the need to point out no less than 3 times on this thread that you can make up arbitrary rules if you want and no one can stop you - you're doing it 'just cause'. Bravo what a fabulous attitude.

Reason: ''
Image
Geggster
Eurobowl Superstar
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: ECBBL, London

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Geggster »

Greshvakk, Darkson doesn't need to justify his tourney rules. Sure, you might not like that he isn't engaging in a discussion of your choosing and coming up with coherent counter arguments to why he feels x is better than y, but since when should he have to spend his own time defending his position on your field of battle?

You are aware of the internet, yes?

You've made a well argued point and perhaps some will consider what they are trying to achieve with BPs. Consider that a big win.

Reason: ''
Geggster

Before you criticise someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when they find out, you're a mile away...... and you have their shoes.
Greshvakk
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:12 am

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Greshvakk »

Geggster wrote:Darkson doesn't need to justify his tourney rules. Sure, you might not like that he isn't engaging in a discussion of your choosing and coming up with coherent counter arguments to why he feels x is better than y, but since when should he have to spend his own time defending his position on your field of battle?
But a tff moderator spending his time pointing out 3 times that his rules can be arbitrary is fine. Fine with me just felt I should point out how that appears. The thread is precisely for justification - or debate as I prefer to call it. If you don't want to justify why spend the time posting? Oh and ps he dragged in a quote from another thread to make sure he hammered home that he can make up rules if he wants. Truly excellent tff moderator behaviour.

Reason: ''
Image
User avatar
Darkson
Da Spammer
Posts: 24047
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:04 pm
Location: The frozen ruins of Felstad
Contact:

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Darkson »

I "dragged" that quote from another thread as it was on the issue of BPs, so posting a reply to it in the BP thread seemed like a better place than in a thread on SoS (which if I'd replied there people would complain of me taking the thread off-topic).

As for justifying my position, I have - it's "because". I've run my tournaments since 2008, probably had about 100 different players, and you're the first that has complained about the scoring system, at least somewhere where I can see it, and I note you didn't try to bring it up face-to-face at the event. If 1% aren't happy then that's unfortunate, but acceptable. Could I run it with 2/1/0 and SoS? Yes I could, but it wouldn't be an event I'd want to run so I wouldn't.

And me being a moderator has nothing to do with me being a TO. You've repeatedly posted you want all events to be 2/1/0 SoS but because I'm a mod I'm not allowed to reply? Despite I'm also a TO?

Reason: ''
Currently an ex-Blood Bowl coach, most likely to be found dying to Armoured Skeletons in the frozen ruins of Felstad, or bleeding into the arena sands of Rome or burning rubber for Mars' entertainment.
Greshvakk
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:12 am

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Greshvakk »

Darkson wrote: I have - it's "because".
On what planet is 'because' a justification? It's the absence of one. Which as Paul has already pointed out is your right. Fair enough but why does a tff moderator keep feeling the need to post in a thread asking a question that they have no need to answer the question? oh and that's 4 times.

Reason: ''
Image
User avatar
Darkson
Da Spammer
Posts: 24047
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:04 pm
Location: The frozen ruins of Felstad
Contact:

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Darkson »

Right, so I'm not even allowed to reply about a post specifically naming me - good to know.

Reason: ''
Currently an ex-Blood Bowl coach, most likely to be found dying to Armoured Skeletons in the frozen ruins of Felstad, or bleeding into the arena sands of Rome or burning rubber for Mars' entertainment.
User avatar
Darkson
Da Spammer
Posts: 24047
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:04 pm
Location: The frozen ruins of Felstad
Contact:

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Darkson »

And "because" is a perfectly valid reason - it's my event, it's my hours I'm putting in, it's my responsibility to unsure everyone gets a game and everything is set in advance (tables, prizes, tea & coffee, etc etc etc), hell, it's even my responsibility if the hall is damaged (as in I'm liable) so if I like scoring system then I'm allowed to use it. No-one is forcing you, or anyone else, to attend. If I wanted to run a tournament where winning was secondary to pass attempts I could, I don't have to justify myself for doing so (though obviously I wouldn't expect many players).

If you feel so strongly on the issue there are plenty of weekends still free in the calendar where you could run a tournament.

Reason: ''
Currently an ex-Blood Bowl coach, most likely to be found dying to Armoured Skeletons in the frozen ruins of Felstad, or bleeding into the arena sands of Rome or burning rubber for Mars' entertainment.
Greshvakk
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:12 am

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Greshvakk »

Darkson wrote:No-one is forcing you, or anyone else, to attend. If I wanted to run a tournament where winning was secondary to pass attempts I could, I don't have to justify myself for doing so (though obviously I wouldn't expect many players).

If you feel so strongly on the issue there are plenty of weekends still free in the calendar where you could run a tournament.
Yes repeat the 'you can f@&k off and not attend if you don't like it' point that you and lunch money kindly started the responses with. I'm not sure I got it the first 2 times.

Reason: ''
Image
User avatar
frogboy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:20 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by frogboy »

Greshvakk, I think you keep pushing the point which is drawing out multiple responses which you don't like. Sometimes we all react in an aggressive manor but this only tends to bring out the worst in people.

Perhaps its best if everyone just takes a deep breath and we can go and put the kettle on, I'm going to make a nice cup of tea.

Reason: ''
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.
Geggster
Eurobowl Superstar
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: ECBBL, London

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Geggster »

Player A beats Player B in R1.

Player A goes on to finish 420, playing tough oppo all the way through on top table/tables.

Player B plays a R1 loser and all tournament is playing several tables below Player A. He finishes 411, but had a couple of very big wins versus noobs/stunties.

TOs: given the huge amount of effort taken in organising the event, which of the two players should win?

You have your answer as to what scoring system should apply.

Reason: ''
Geggster

Before you criticise someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when they find out, you're a mile away...... and you have their shoes.
User avatar
Darkson
Da Spammer
Posts: 24047
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:04 pm
Location: The frozen ruins of Felstad
Contact:

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Darkson »

Player A beats player B in R1
Player C beats player D in R1.

Player A goes on to win all their games.
Player C wins some but not all.

Player D beats player B.

Both B & D end up with the exact same record, but SoS puts B on top.

Why should player B be higher than player D? Player D had no control over who they played in R1, so why should they be penalised for the luck of the draw?

Reason: ''
Currently an ex-Blood Bowl coach, most likely to be found dying to Armoured Skeletons in the frozen ruins of Felstad, or bleeding into the arena sands of Rome or burning rubber for Mars' entertainment.
Geggster
Eurobowl Superstar
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: ECBBL, London

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Geggster »

That is a good point, Darkson, and one I made on my first post here on the previous page.

Do you consider a valid argument for why BPs should be used for ascertaining who should be 7th or 8th reason enough to reinforce a system that might crown a winner that has demonstrably got a worse record?

Reason: ''
Geggster

Before you criticise someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when they find out, you're a mile away...... and you have their shoes.
Moraiwe
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:22 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Moraiwe »

Darkson wrote:Player A beats player B in R1
Player C beats player D in R1.

Player A goes on to win all their games.
Player C wins some but not all.

Player D beats player B.

Both B & D end up with the exact same record, but SoS puts B on top.

Why should player B be higher than player D? Player D had no control over who they played in R1, so why should they be penalised for the luck of the draw?
This is why I like head-to-head record as a first tie-break, followed by SoS.

Reason: ''
User avatar
Darkson
Da Spammer
Posts: 24047
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:04 pm
Location: The frozen ruins of Felstad
Contact:

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Darkson »

I can't speak for other TOs, but I use BPs as a means of breaking ties with those on the same record ( as the worse win is better than the best draw, and the worst draw is better than the best lose). To me, that's better than a SoS system that you, as a coach, have no control over.

Reason: ''
Currently an ex-Blood Bowl coach, most likely to be found dying to Armoured Skeletons in the frozen ruins of Felstad, or bleeding into the arena sands of Rome or burning rubber for Mars' entertainment.
Geggster
Eurobowl Superstar
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: ECBBL, London

Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Geggster »

Two coaches finish 501.

Player A beat Player B in R1.

Player A played orcs and undead at the top table from R2-6, losing once.

Player B played gobbos and/or noobs for the remainder of day one before playing orcs and undead and the top tables on day 2.

Who will, likely, have more bonus points when deciding tournament champion?

Neither player had control over the oppo they faced but should that mean it is entirely discounted? I would argue it is normally harder to beat well-coached orcs than it is beat noob Goblins. But the BP system rewards the latter.

Reason: ''
Geggster

Before you criticise someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when they find out, you're a mile away...... and you have their shoes.
Post Reply