UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by besters »

My thoughts. I tend to agree with the fact that the W/D/L record should prevail and that bonus points should be a form of separating people on the same record.

Having said that I have won tournaments with an inferior record to the second place and come second with a superior record, both at P K & Q a tournament previously quoted as not having this issue. When you sign up for a tournament you know the possibilities!

I think that if someone is prepared to take the time and effort to conduct a tournament you have to respect the rules they set in place. I don't think a variation on scoring has ever given me a second thought about entering a tournament. I am far more interested in location and my availability. I will say that on occasion the fact they are in a wider tournament grouping has also encouraged greater attendance.

I play to win, hopefully in an environment where fun is ultimately more important. I would certainly be sad if a tournament like Bunker Bowl, for example, ceased because the organiser thought his efforts weren't appreciated. I for one appreciate the efforts of all tournament organisers, even if I don't attend a particular tournament it's good to see them there!


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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Dionysian »

besters wrote:... and come second with a superior record
Only second? I finished 6th at a tourney last year with the outright best record :lol: (I've also won a tourney with an inferior record).

@OP this topic will draw you a lot of hate, but I'm always thrilled to see it come up and many of us agree with your basic point. Others have questioned before whether TOs fully understand the implications of some of the rulesets they produce (and there have been several instances of TOs holding hands up after the fact admitting the outcome was unintended). While the most glaring problem with bonus points (BPs) is allowing an inferior record to triumph (and simply ensuring that drawing is never worth more than a win in an individual game doesn't solve the issue; the main point is how easy it is for someone to accumulate enough BPs over the course of the tourney to overcome an inferior record), other major problems (which have been highlighted before) are that BPs doubly reward a good round draw (especially with regard to getting stunties) and that they encourage bad play.

Not attending tournaments that utilise BPs isn't really an option as BB with a bad scoring system/ruleset is usually still far better than no BB at all. Especially given that BPs have virtually reached epidemic status lately. I see nothing wrong with the discussion coming up (it's certainly more worthwhile than complaints about clawpomb or guard spam). We can hate aspects of a rulespack while still enjoying the tournament overall and appreciating the TO for running it. For example, I disagree with almost every rule Darkson adds (BPs, spam restriction, jokers, the outrageous outlawing of brick and grotty :) ) but he's a fantastic TO so I'm likely to support every event he runs anyway - no matter how janky the ruleset - shipping coinage as soon as I know I'm going (quick aside: pay your TOs promptly people). Should he ever feel unappreciated as a TO I'd grow back the moustache and give him an appreciation kiss.

And as it happens ARBBL is actually a decent enough implementation if one really wants to use BPs. They're fairly unlikely to overcome WDL and to do so one probably has to build a team specifically for maximising BPs, which compromises effectiveness and makes winning each game harder. At that point it becomes much more reasonable (although I'm still firmly in the 2/1/0 SOS camp myself) to argue that he's the legitimate tournament winner despite the slightly inferior record. If the ARBBL implementation (or a lighter one) was standard for BP tourneys this issue would be generating a lot less heat - the kickback is coming from heavy BP weighting regularly deciding the outcome of more and more tournaments.

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Pipey »

Just to add on this from Jim.
besters wrote:...When you sign up for a tournament you know the possibilities!

I think that if someone is prepared to take the time and effort to conduct a tournament you have to respect the rules they set in place...

...I would certainly be sad if a tournament... ceased because the organiser thought his efforts weren't appreciated. I for one appreciate the efforts of all tournament organisers...
Of course. But I'm absolutely sure feedback can be offered positively, respectfully and without any question of upsetting anyone.

I very much hope our community is resilient enough to have this conversation constructively :)

Question to NTC group - do you think there should be any guidance on this from the Tournament Coordinators? Wouldn't be a question of imposing rules (that would be for the TD), but perhaps offering a recommendation e.g. that bonus point systems retain the primacy of W/D/L over other aspects?

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by sann0638 »

It would be interesting to hear an argument for why a 5/1/0 should be considered better than a 6/0/0. Is this a conscious decision by any TOs, or just something that happens?

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Pipey »

Or why a 4/1/1 should be better than 4/2/0 or 5/0/1 (which feels like a more common occurrence).

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by besters »

pipey wrote: Of course. But I'm absolutely sure feedback can be offered positively, respectfully and without any question of upsetting anyone.

I very much hope our community is resilient enough to have this conversation constructively
I hope this is the case, whilst being pretty much in the 2/1/0 camp I think it would be ashame to lose variety in the scoring systems.

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Wulfyn »

howlinggriffon wrote:This is the 2nd post about bonus points that has referenced Bunker Bowl. For the record, I picked this score set as I ran Bunker Bowl IV with Rodders after he gave up the Carrot Crunch. I used the Carrot Crunch rules as I thought it would be a nice way to merge the two tournaments. I used them again for Bunker Bowl V as I didn't realise there was a hornet's nest attached.

If it's going to cause this much of an issue, I just won't run it again.
HG - I'm not criticising your choice; it is your tournament and you are free to make up any rules you like. People are not forced to attend they come because they want to, and I thought it was a great weekend. You organised it exceptionally well and now I have an agenda against Puggy! I was only using your tournament as an example as it was the last one I went to, and not to single it out as being bad. Sorry if it came across as the latter.

That shouldn't stop us from having a rational discussion about what the bonus point system should be. We all might learn a thing or two from each other. It may not change anyone's mind, but the conversation is a good thing I think. We have to separate trying to analyse and improve our hobby from it being an attack on how people give up their spare time to help the rest of us have a good time (and I am appreciative of all the people that do this whether I attend the tournament or not).

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by lunchmoney »

Dionysian wrote: (quick aside: pay your TOs promptly people).
+1 ;)
pipey wrote:Question to NTC group - do you think there should be any guidance on this from the Tournament Coordinators? Wouldn't be a question of imposing rules (that would be for the TD), but perhaps offering a recommendation e.g. that bonus point systems retain the primacy of W/D/L over other aspects?
Guidance, yes. I like BPs but whatever scoring system a TO uses 5/1/0 should be better than 4/2/0.

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Glowworm »

Any system is flawed IMHO,.... and before someone waves the "SoS" Flag, I won a stunty cup because I was (un)lucky enough to play a coach in round 1 (Random draw) who finished 2nd IRRc in that particular tournament, my points were equal to another coach so SoS was used and I won.... Fair?? nope, not really, I won that on someone else's efforts (Thanks Lunchmoney :wink: ) not because I outperformed the opposition, at least with Td & Cas bonuses I'm winning on my own ability (or lack of it)

Extreme example: I'm going to thrud with gobbo's (again) and I know its going to be competitive stunty field (read : Chosengobbo / Itchen) so I'll challenge Joemanji in round 1, its allowed under Thruds rules (Challenges) and I'm sure Joe will go on to do well after destroying me in Rd1 so that's my SoS sorted and I'm probably no worse off than I would normally be after Rd1

Any rule set has issues, mine included, No weather = HMP Bombers galore on Gobbo teams, not what I planned at all but it happens. I think the answer is, check the rule set, if your unhappy with ANY aspect of it don't go! I haven't attended a local tournament for a couple of years for exactly this reason, Its not a "bad" tournament, I just don't agree with that particular rule set so I don't attend.... Simple ( and yes, I do like the T.O)

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by besters »

besters wrote: Having said that I have won tournaments with an inferior record to the second place and come second with a superior record, both at P K & Q a tournament previously quoted as not having this issue.
I should point out that my comments refer to an earlier incarnation of P K & Q and that the current rules are based on a 2/1/0 system for Win/Draw/Loss.

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by Digger Goreman »

In-game score 3pts per TD and 2pts per CAS... Blood and Bowl.... Highly unlikely to be any ties and teams play to their strengths....

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by frogboy »

If SoS were used/is used then can't the TO start the first round off using NAF rankings?

Just an idea...

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by RoterSternHochdahl »

Digger Goreman wrote:In-game score 3pts per TD and 2pts per CAS... Blood and Bowl.... Highly unlikely to be any ties and teams play to their strengths....
What about points for passes and interceptions? People might finally skill Pass Block ^^

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by sann0638 »

frogboy wrote:If SoS were used/is used then can't the TO start the first round off using NAF rankings?

Just an idea...
Monkeybowl does this, I think? Or win % anyway, if not NAF rankings :)

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Re: UK 'Bonus' Points - TOs what are you trying to achieve?

Post by besters »

sann0638 wrote:
frogboy wrote:If SoS were used/is used then can't the TO start the first round off using NAF rankings?

Just an idea...
Monkeybowl does this, I think? Or win % anyway, if not NAF rankings :)
Using tv to schedule the first round just means people start with vanilla or low tv teams.

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