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Tiers
Brets Tier 1 29%  29%  [ 12 ]
Brets Tier 2 21%  21%  [ 9 ]
Brets Tier 3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Khorne Tier 1 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Khorne Tier 2 45%  45%  [ 19 ]
Khorne Tier 3 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 42
 
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 Post subject: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Question: Now that these teams are to be introduced. What tier do you think they will sit into?

Personally i think both should be tier 2 however i'm interested in what others think.


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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Glad to see this thread!

I saw President Mike suggest (somewhere) that we put the new teams in Tier 1 and wait for them to fail out. I understand that viewpoint but also think it discourages people from using them at all.

Locally we (often) use a 4-tier system, which is surely flawed already. But here's how the local organizers had envisioned it with the new teams:
TIER 1 - 4 skills [no doubles]
Amazon, CD, Dark Elf, Dwarf, Lizardman, Norse, Orc, Undead, Wood Elf
TIER 2 - 5 skills [up to 1 double]
Bretonnian, Elf, High Elf, Human, Necro, Skaven
TIER 3 - 6 skills [up to 2 doubles]
Chaos, Chaos Pact, Khemri, Khorne, Nurgle, Slann, Vampires
TIER 4 - 6 skills [up to 4 doubles], +50,000 GC
Goblin, Halfling, Underworld, Stunty Lizardmen

I should note that tournaments are almost always 1.1 or 1.15 TV.

Does that appear too corrupt? It seems fine to me, especially given the minor differences between what the tiers are given, but I'm glad to hear otherwise.

EDIT: Had Khemri twice instead of vampires.

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Last edited by Gaixo on Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Both Tier 0 (no additional skills) - anything to discourage their use is a good thing.

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Khorne and Bretonnian? Sorry, those don't exist - bring a real roster.


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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:07 pm 
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For a three tier system, I think you would have to add Brets to the first tier, though. They probably belong with Necro; screwed without skills, powerful with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
Both Tier 0 (no additional skills) - anything to discourage their use is a good thing.


Hello,

I've seen you post things like this on other threads and TBH, i really don't understand your unwillingness to admit new teams. Both have a background in the old Warhammer world and both have been requested by many people. Personally i'd love to see lots of new teams. Variety IMHO is a good thing.

I'm certainly not having a go at you, however I just don't get the attitude against change.

nazgob wrote:
For a three tier system, I think you would have to add Brets to the first tier, though. They probably belong with Necro; screwed without skills, powerful with them.


I agree that both might be quite powerful in tier 2, However i don't think they have enough in tier 1 to even get close to the likes of Woodie, Dark Elves, Undead and the like. Khorne might be rather nasty if it has a lot of block. After a few turns half your team could end up being surfed.

Gaixo wrote:
Glad to see this thread!


Good, i'm glad to have added to the debate. I like they system you have. It's quite similar to the Eurobowl one where Vamps and Underworld are in the bottom tier. It allows then to take star player which helps them no end.


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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:13 pm 
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(Sorry! You asked!)

MarzM wrote:
I'm certainly not having a go at you, however I just don't get the attitude against change.

That's it, I'm against change (as someone that helped get the Underworld roster into the game).

I have no issue with good rosters (which counts Khorne out) added that are really needed (which counts Brets out).

Of the two, the Bret roster is the better, but isn't needed as a Bret team is easily covered by the human roster (as per Jervis Johnson) but suffers from the "superhuman" problem - Knights were great in WFB because of their horse, which they don't have in BB, and if Knights are laying BB for Bretonnia, why not the Empire (i.e. human teams). And if they are (when someone says "Blitzers" then why does the Bret need a better statline? It's not like they're a different breed of humans.

The Khorne roster is just rubbish. While not the be all and end all of the game, the fluff is important, and this just craps on Khorne fluff (No mutations? Less 'killy' than normal Chaos?). The roster was designed for Cyanide with serious handicaps (the graphics for one), none of which should have been an issue for a TT roster. Dode (one of the people behind it) has admitted that it's not the roster he'd have made if it hadn't been for the "handcuffs" they were under from Cyanide. So why force an inferior (in terms of design, not in power) on TT players? If Khorne is needed so badly (it's not) then why not add one that fits the fluff AND doesn't have design handcuffs? Add in that Khorne is a very bad roster choice for the game.

Then there's the fact that one of these rosters doesn't even exist in the latest iteration of it's home format. Andy Hoare has said on Facebook that GW have no intention of adding K&B to the game, and even if they did, they'd not be these rosters - what happens if (unlikely though it is) GW decide to add their own (different) K&B rosters to the game in DZ3/4/etc? Is the NAF going to run with 4 rosters? Just add the rankings together?

And finally, if (and that's a big if) there was a time to add non-official races to the game, it was years ago, when GW had zero interest in the game. Now that they've re-released it (to big sales numbers) it is the wrong time to be moving away from GW, and away from the new TT players.

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Khorne and Bretonnian? Sorry, those don't exist - bring a real roster.


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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
(Sorry! You asked!)

That's it, I'm against change (as someone that helped get the Underworld roster into the game).


Ok...dick waving aside. That may not be the best example. I play Underworld and im pretty certain they are the worst part of Skaven combined with the worst part of Goblins. Which leads onto my next point...

Quote:
I have no issue with good rosters (which counts Khorne out)

I note from your signature that you seem immensely proud of winning the stunty cup. Well done, however i'm sure most people would agree. The stunty rosters are terrible. However they happen to be fun. Some people might find the Khorne roster to be fun also. As stated, it could surf a large part of an opponents team and provide a real challenge to both the player (trying to avoid frenzy traps) and the opponent (trying to lay frenzy traps).

Quote:
added that are really needed (which counts Brets out).

Of the two, the Bret roster is the better, but isn't needed as a Bret team is easily covered by the human roster (as per Jervis Johnson) but suffers from the "superhuman" problem - Knights were great in WFB because of their horse, which they don't have in BB, and if Knights are laying BB for Bretonnia, why not the Empire (i.e. human teams). And if they are (when someone says "Blitzers" then why does the Bret need a better statline? It's not like they're a different breed of humans.


To use an American football term. Humans play the west coast offence. Bret's play like the (old) Pittsburgh Steelers. They are more of a running bash team. I think both team have different strengths and weaknesses. The reason i think the Bretonnian knights wouldn't play for the Empire (which i really what the Human team is) is because...they don't like them.

Quote:
Then there's the fact that one of these rosters doesn't even exist in the latest iteration of it's home format. Andy Hoare has said on Facebook that GW have no intention of adding K&B to the game, and even if they did, they'd not be these rosters - what happens if (unlikely though it is) GW decide to add their own (different) K&B rosters to the game in DZ3/4/etc? Is the NAF going to run with 4 rosters? Just add the rankings together?


So is GW going to add stupid space frogs? I doubt it however NAF has said that the Slann will "Always be legal".

Quote:
And finally, if (and that's a big if) there was a time to add non-official races to the game, it was years ago, when GW had zero interest in the game. Now that they've re-released it (to big sales numbers) it is the wrong time to be moving away from GW, and away from the new TT players.


Again i raise Slann and also that most TO's use the old piling on rule...NAF already picks and chooses what rules it uses. IMO this is no difference.

That all aside, i realise you are not happy. There was a vote and you were on the losing side. Some people just want to have fun...to some that involves playing different races. You seem to want to restrict what people can choose to play and that doesn't seem great to me. So as you seem to not want to be constructive in terms of what comes next and just want to complain. I suggest this is perhaps not the thread for your good self. In order not to derail a thread you clearly don't like...perhaps i shouldn't have asked.

I thank you for your time.


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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:27 pm 
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MarzM wrote:
Question: Now that these teams are to be introduced. What tier do you think they will sit into?


Ok,

So far almost everyone has said Khorne should be tier 2. I'm in agreement with that. Only one person thinks otherwise (perhaps they know something i don't)...

Bretonnians seem to be more split. It's currently 60/40 tier1.

Now apparently (so im informed) on BB2 Brets have roughly the same win ratio as basic Humans. However that wont really be a great example as i think Dode's stats are more about Champ and Open Ladder than the NAF style play (as they are not legal for that yet).

I think the reason some thing tier 1 over 2 is due to the number of skills a T2 team can get. They get the 6 but can squeeze to 8. For Brets that could mean 4 blodgers and 4 Wrestle/guard. I guess some think that would be too good and tbh i think it could be a pain. However the flip side is i dont think anyone would take it as you have no MB and no tackle (the 2nd being a bit more important IMO).

So my further question would be...is that a major issue for those voting tier 1?

Ta.


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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:34 pm 
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In theory Tiers aren't hard and fast, they're a tool which some tournament organizers use to encourage a wider range of races at their tournaments. Nobody wants to play only Undead and Wood Elves for a weekend.

Not all tournament organizers even use tiers, some just give all races the same skill/budget package and that's that. They're free to assign different races different packages as they please.
I imagine that different tournaments will use different rulesets (and both Khorne and Brets are optional anyway). Once we have a few hundred or a few thousand games for each of these teams, we'll know more. But I doubt it'll ever be settled. There isn't a complete consensus on whether Necromantic are Tier 1 or 2, for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Is there not a formula that works it out. Like how much a player is worth. But more complicated.

I mean what or who has decided and how which teirs teams are in generally.

for example, i dont understand why Humans are considered Teir 2 but Orcs are Teir 1. Both are in the box set, both counters to each others style of play. They seem equal to me.

Is it bash vs scoring or what positionals can be fielded at 1M gold? Or some other factors??

If someone knows answers to that then start understanding where Khorne and Brets are when looking at Teirs. But its not a hard and fast rule for anything anyway, never ment to be included in the Vanilla game. But as above post says, more for local TO's to play around with to encourage a variety of teams more than anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: Khorne & Bretonnians
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:10 am 
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It's 100% Tournament Organizers who decide tiers. No formula, no real objective guideline. You could run a tournament in which Dwarves get 10 skills and Goblins get 2. (I predict you wouldn't get many Goblin players at that tournament but who knows?).

Orcs are generally considered Tier 1 because they're the most popular team in every format, and it's not particularly close. But again, it's totally up to the Organizer who makes the rules. The next tournament which I know will allow K&B doesn't have tiers, just a flat budget from which coaches buy players and skills. And I know of several coaches who will be playing the new teams.

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