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 Post subject: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:47 am 
Legend
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Following on from here viewtopic.php?f=59&t=44296&start=90

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:48 am 
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TheVoiceofJericho wrote:
Huh? This is pay to win surely. How on earth can that be NAF sanctioned?

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 am 
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Loki wrote:
Please justify why this is pay to win

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 am 
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TheVoiceofJericho wrote:
You're rewarding people who pay early with in game benefits over those who didn't. You're not rewarding them with cosmetic items. This unbalances the game and gives unfair advantage to early payers.

Sorry but to me that screams pay to win. If the NAF knowingly allow this and approve it then they are not sticking to their own rules. Where's the consistency?

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 am 
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dreamscreator wrote:
That's bit extreme...

You can say in that case that a tournament without tiers is "pay to win" if you play with tier 1 teams.

An extra reroll, if you get it, it's a small advantage. It isn't to give you the win.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:50 am 
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Merrick wrote:
Thrudball has been doing early bird bonuses for years and nobody has batted an eyelid. It's just an incentive for early payment in order to save TOs potential headaches about not being able to pay venue and prize costs in time.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:50 am 
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Blocknroll wrote:
Thrud Has, but eyelids have been batted

The comment about tiers is totally off the mark.

There’s nothing prohibiting such incentives in the naf sanctioning rules.

How’s that for a well balanced reply :)

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:50 am 
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nightwing wrote:
TheVoiceofJericho wrote:
You're rewarding people who pay early with in game benefits over those who didn't. You're not rewarding them with cosmetic items. This unbalances the game and gives unfair advantage to early payers.

Sorry but to me that screams pay to win. If the NAF knowingly allow this and approve it then they are not sticking to their own rules. Where's the consistency?


Given that trying to get Blood Bowl players to pay up for tournaments in good time is akin to herding cats, the policy here is eminently sensible. No one is paying more- those who pay early have paid the same amount, but paid early enough to make the TO's job much, much easier for purchase of prizes, paying for venue etc.

And the massively game unbalancing reward? A potential boost for 2 of the 11 Kick off results. Which get you, at best, an extra reroll. Hardly a game breaking advantage, is it?

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:50 am 
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Blocknroll wrote:
Until I play someone in the final round to see which of us wins. They have the 60k inducements, and win a reroll over me. That reroll means they score a td they wouldn’t have otherwise and they win 1-0. Unless of course Merrick is right and people love to play with no rerolls ? Given people usually don’t do that, it’s safe to assume rerolls are useful. And
There’s usually more than one kick off per game so it’s a recurring possible advantage. If every opponent in a four game tournament has this advantage over me how many times am I possibly losing out? At least 8 and I’d have thought more realistically around 16-20 times
These rolls are 6 and 8 on the kick off table so the more likely range of results. And
Adding 3 to a d3 roll means I cannot win any of these rolls. Can’t even tie them. (Fame not withstanding)

If it was 60k to spend as you wish would you feel the same?

I for one would far prefer a cash discount on early sign ups (or extra swag etc) than any kind of ingame advantage.

However it might be best to continue this conversation in a different thread rather than here.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:51 am 
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lunchmoney wrote:
nightwing wrote:
A potential boost for 2 of the 11 Kick off results.

Gotta weigh in on just this comment, sorry. Whilst it is 2 of the 11 results on the Kick Off table, it's not 2 in 11 chances. You roll 2d6 for kick off giving 36 results. Getting a 6 or 8 is 5/36 or 13.89% each, or 27.78% overall. That means it's 10/36, or over 1 in 4 times, a reroll kick off result is rolled; not 2 in 11 as implied.

High scoring teams (elves and skaven for example) will see more Kick Offs and will gain the benefit more than dwarfs and their 1-0 grind game with only 2 Kick Offs.


Back to the "pay to win" debate. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:51 am 
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Purplegoo wrote:
Blocknroll wrote:
However it might be best to continue this conversation in a different thread rather than here.


I think that's a good idea.

I only post because the NAF and NAF policy has been mentioned. I'd be happy to engage in a different thread, not cluttering the BUBBA build-up any further than is necessary. You never know, we may even prove that it is possible to have a reasonable discussion on TFF... ;)

To Tournament Discussions?

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:06 am 
I'm Alan Partridge

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I think fwiw that “pay to win” is a slightly stronger phrase than what I am saying, but I do think that in-game advantages that have been paid
For are a bad idea.

I totally agree and understand that incentivising early payments is a worthwhile thing as even fairly small to medium size tourneys may be paying as
I do £100 a day for a venue before we even get in to prizes, food, goodies, expenses etc

And please know I intend no criticism of anyone, but an observation about in game advantage

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:19 am 
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Just on the in game advantage, I don't think 16-20 is realistic.

Basic odds of KO role coming up are 10/36, I would suggest that an average number of KO's is 5 say 1 for each half plus 1 each for a 2-1 game (which ignores that a lot of TD get scored T8/T16 and therefore wouldn't trigger an extra KO). That gives the basic number of chances for a KO role where you don't win a RR as 10/36ths of 5. Taking this back to real numbers this means on average there will be 1.4 re-roll relevant roles per average match.

Add in a bit of positive variation for FAME (as currently we are assuming that you do not gain any RR from the 1.4) and also not every match you play will be against someone who has an advantage and that we all know that a 10 (Blitz) must come up when it would be most hurtful. I think even 8 is a bit high. Obviously the sample set at BUBBA is likely to be small but I'll post collated numbers after the tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:29 am 
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I really like early bird incentives, i believe Loki's was very well advertised from the beginning and the rules haven't changed at all.

He's moving to a new venue and as someone who has also organised a tournement its a pain in the arse to get people paying so late. Not knowing numbers for food and score etc. (Drop outs are even worse)

Extra swag cost real money too, so in game bonus' are better, i did swag bonus at mine and it cost me how ever much money and time organising little party bags etc. So kind of defeated the object.

Perhaps an argument for coaches to play unranked games though, if there that botherd about their rankings that it stops them attending, i think that is sad...

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:42 am 
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As it's me who ahs created this opportunity for discussion, couple of things I'd chip in with...

I'm not actually that happy with how the additional AC/CL stuff has worked out. I most likely choose something different if I found my self in the same position at then end of this year as I did last year and had already made that decision prior to this discussion. That being said as TO I had to balance a number of things.

I think people will be very impressed with this years venue particularly in relation to some previous venues - regular attendees will remember fondly 'Daves Cow Shed'. The down side was that the venue required full payment up front, the previous venue worked on a deposit and balance on the day format.

I chose not to do a financial discount as ultimately then some people are paying and getting nothing more than others and if you don't make the discount significant enough then it doesn't work anyway. I also felt that the arrangements around a freebie of significant enough value were prohibitive.

One thing that has not been said enough is that - everyone has the opportunity for the same advantage. The early bird discount was well advertised in all the same places as the tournament was - ultimately I foresee that overall we may lose absolute numbers but that most of the people will be on the same level within the tournament. If the tournament didn't run there would be 27ish disappointed people rather than the 3-4 who are now seeing the tournament is on and feel they can't accept that they missed the Early Bird opportunity. If you are free and want a tournament that weekend Thorball 2 is on! (just for reference he has had 5 people pay vs BUBBAs 28 - get your finger out and pay TO's and this wouldn't be an issue)

I would be geunily intrested to hear from other TO's their views of how you handle the competing issues around getting a quality venue/ offering the best experience to participants, maintaining equality

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Last edited by Loki on Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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