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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:43 am 
Legend
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frogboy wrote:
Perhaps an argument for coaches to play unranked games though, if there that botherd about their rankings that it stops them attending, i think that is sad...

What? A bit of topic, there.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:43 am 
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Blocknroll wrote:
I think fwiw that “pay to win” is a slightly stronger phrase than what I am saying, but I do think that in-game advantages that have been paid For are a bad idea.

If they're advantages that have been poorly advertised, or only given to certain groups or people, I'd agree. But this wasn't exactly whispered in a dark corner by Loki. He referred to it several times in the tournament post (and in person, at tournaments).

frogboy wrote:
I really like early bird incentives, i believe Loki's was very well advertised from the beginning and the rules haven't changed at all.

Agreed. It was even staggered to give people more notice that there was a benefit to getting involved.

frogboy wrote:
Extra swag cost real money too, so in game bonus' are better, i did swag bonus at mine and it cost me how ever much money and time organising little party bags etc. So kind of defeated the object.

I still use my FoulBowl dice (when fouling), and loved the little party bags! But completely get that it must have been a ballache. FoulBowl remains one of my favourite tournies.

frogboy wrote:
Perhaps an argument for coaches to play unranked games though, if there that botherd about their rankings that it stops them attending, i think that is sad...

Three comments in, and we're on to the ranked vs. unranked games thing again! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:50 am 
Legend
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Loki wrote:
- get your finger out and pay TO's and this wouldn't be an issue)
This, oh my gods, this!!!
And now from an attendee perspective... Sometimes I just don't know if I can attend or not until really close the time.
But if enough coaches know they can go, they really need to pay up quicker so we TOs don't have this issue.


Loki wrote:
I would be geunily intrested to hear from other TO's their views of how you handle the competing issues around getting a quality venue/ offering the best experience to participants, maintaining equality

I did the early bird one year, in exactly the same format as Bubba and Thrud, 3 AC & CL, then 2 then 1. And it gave me the same unsettled feeling. I didn't like doing it but I needed the money up front. And that is the crux of the issue - a TO, generally, doesn't have the bank roll to front the cost for venue hire and prizes etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:14 pm 
Legend
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lunchmoney wrote:
frogboy wrote:
Perhaps an argument for coaches to play unranked games though, if there that botherd about their rankings that it stops them attending, i think that is sad...

What? A bit of topic, there.


Its not. If someone doesn't like the fact they missed the early bird insentive and feels that attending would skew their rankings (to the point there not going to attend), then having an option to play unranked games but still attend is a good option surely.


As far as from a players perspective, i think its just a bit of fun and added twist to the story. I didnt even think twice about it being a good or bad idea, but am looking forward to meeting my free cheerleaders and feeding the coaches to my squig.

People take this game way too serious

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:29 pm 
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frogboy wrote:
Its not. If someone doesn't like the fact they missed the early bird insentive and feels that attending would skew their rankings (to the point there not going to attend), then having an option to play unranked games but still attend is a good option surely.


No mentioned in any of the posts (so far) about skewed rankings being the issue though.

I like the sandwich-for-cheerleaders suggestion. I have three cheerleaders and three assistant coaches. Can't see it in the NAF rules anywhere, but I think that means I get six sandwiches, if I'm willing to trade up. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:55 pm 
Legend
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No, i mentioned it as i think its relevent, if someone wants to go play blood bowl and dont really care then its a none issue, lesgue games are hardy even so these issues can only be a problem in tournements and its because of competitiveness.

It doesn't take a genius to see why, come on now!

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:07 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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Hi all, some great points made so far.

As a joint-TO, I'm well aware of the struggles faced when trying to guess how many coaches will attend your tournament. It's often difficult to estimate how much money you can spend on the venue, prizes and bits by the time you have to spend it. I know I'm not the only one that's gotten it wrong. One year we bought everyone lunch with a surplus, another year we were slightly out of pocket. So I understand and agree with the principle of early bird bonuses. I now sign up to events I'm going to attend as soon as I'm physically able, and would encourage everyone to do likewise.

Loki and Al have both mentioned feeling a little bit queasy about offering on-pitch incentives for early signups. While I totally accept that such freebies are advertised from minute one, I would find it unsatisfactory to win or lose a game on a re-roll generated by someone signing up late via a work rota change, etc. I attended Thrud a couple of times when they did this, and quietly waived my freebies when playing someone without (while lobbying Frank to stop doing it). It just feels off, whether impactful in reality or not.

It was mentioned in the BUBBA thread that this practice amounts to pay to win and should be against NAF policy. I think the first point is too strong, and this currently isn't against sanctioning policy ('currently' does not equate to 'expect change soon'). However, as TD, I have been quietly trying to advise TOs where I see potentially unsatisfactory things in submitted rulespacks. While not directly analogous to this discussion, where I've seen IP being enforced or the 4 minute rule, a friendly explanation that it might create bad feeling (have you considered this other workaround?) has worked out well so far. I think if / when the next one of these comes in, I'll engage in a similar discussion.

Other early bird bonuses (cash discounts, extra raffle tickets, CD choices, sandwiches, etc.) appear to be roughly as effective as free on-pitch help, and I find them far more satisfying. I'd encourage TOs to go in this direction. Finally, I think we sometimes get too hung up on the bells and whistles. If you're concerned with your budget as a TO, concentrate on the venue first. If you have a hall within which nerds can play BB, the other stuff can come when you have firmer numbers. A last minute online voucher prize is better than buying a flashy trophy a month in advance where you've drummed up attendees early via on-pitch incentives.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:33 pm 
I'm Alan Partridge

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16/20 is how many kick off rolls I expect to be made in four games , Lunchmoney’s maths suggests a bit over 50% odds of those two results.
I wasn’t suggesting it would be 16/20 rerolls ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:38 pm 
I'm Alan Partridge

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Frogboy - rankings doesn’t even come in to it.
I think we are all trying to look at this objectively without personal agendas, so how anyone’s ranking is relevant I don’t know :)

Should it be possible to buy an in game advantage at a tournament or not? That’s the question we are debating in a theoretical sense. Loki’s tournament is the starting point of the discussion but not the topic of discussion per se

Loki - don’t get hung up on this it’s not a witch hunt :)
Also not everyone had the same chance, my work situation has changed significantly since the tourney was advertised (I 100% could not have made it) to present time (could make it but significantly deterred in this circumstance)

(Re thorball - having lost Saturday work I’m very limited on how many Sundays I take Off, but again this conversation is about general principles not my situation or Loki’s tournament)

As a TO whos organised I dunno 12-14 tournaments I REALLY DO understand people paying late is a frustration, I’ve personally lost money a few times on tourneys by having to pay out ahead of time for venues food prizes. Partly that risk comes with the territory and the only way to fully negate risk is probably not to run tourneys! Unsatisfactory but a fact I’m sure.

As purplegoo says, at the end of the day we just need a place to play. people have even run sanctioned tournaments in their homes IIRC, and as lunchmoney says - pay early if you can go! i do this now for the limited tourneys i can go, sit down plan it out, know i will commit to ARBBL say and put it in the diary and send the money right away.

Early bird price deductions where different people pay different amounts happen in all sorts of settings, I’m not sure how effective they are can anyone who offers that let us know?

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Last edited by Blocknroll on Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:55 pm 
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I think it will be interesting to know at the end of the tournament how many rerolls has been "stolen".

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:58 pm 
I'm Alan Partridge

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it will be , it also wont actually be hugely relevant to this conversation.

swap rerolls for wizards, or an extra player, or free star player or whatever in game advantage you like, and thats still the conversation we are having here.

ps interesting how all the regular TOs who have commented feel that its not a good idea (especially interesting, some who have done it)

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:22 pm 
Legend
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Purplegoo wrote:
I attended Thrud a couple of times when they did this, and quietly waived my freebies when playing someone without (while lobbying Frank to stop doing it).

You are not the only one ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:02 pm 
Legend
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Have a civilized conversation as long as my point is irrelevant, brilliant.

Just dont understand the problem, so some people pay early, if you cant and dont get the bonus then tough really init.

Anyone having a problem with it after the cut off obviously still wants to attend but is unhappy that the game is unfair, why does that even matter? Just come and play, have a laugh its really not important if you win or loose. If it is well lol good luck with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:43 pm 
Legend
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Blocknroll wrote:
16/20 is how many kick off rolls I expect to be made in four games , Lunchmoney’s maths suggests a bit over 50% odds of those two results.
I wasn’t suggesting it would be 16/20 rerolls ;)


To quote...

Blocknroll wrote:
...If every opponent in a four game tournament has this advantage over me how many times am I possibly losing out? At least 8 and I’d have thought more realistically around 16-20 times...


Just making it clear that people are likely to be "losing out" 1.4 times a game, not the 4-5 a simple reading of your comment would appear to suggest.

You have 10/36 i.e. less than 33% chance not ~50% of any given Kick-off event being a Cheering Fans or Brilliant Coaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:47 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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frogboy wrote:
Anyone having a problem with it after the cut off obviously still wants to attend but is unhappy that the game is unfair, why does that even matter? Just come and play, have a laugh its really not important if you win or loose. If it is well lol good luck with that.


Some coaches have fun by trying to win rather than lose. I don't think that's an issue, and these things are called 'tournaments', after all. One of the strengths of the game is that everyone can approach it with their own objectives and have fun regardless of whether they marry those of the opposition. Early bird cash discounts or sandwiches don't adversely affect any type of Blood Bowler apart from the late payment variety. On-pitch rewards are unsatisfying because they threaten to impact results, and I think most people do care about results, to a lesser or greater degree. It goes without saying that results don't come before having a laugh, but we shouldn't disregard them entirely.

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