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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:54 pm 
I'm Alan Partridge

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:23 am
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Loki to clarify my ill-worded sentence - there will be at least 8 times, but more likely say 16-20 times that a dice roll will be made over four games ( kick off table) which could result in me losing out automatically on a reroll (not taking fame into account as we simply have no way of knowing who will have taken what fan factor etc etc) if those rolls are total of 6 or 8 (which i had already clarified)

frogboy - thanks for your brilliant input "tough init" very useful, thanks :)

ps i think lunchmoney has redone his maths somewhere and of course in your particular tournament setting almost everyone paid in october so its a bit of a moot point

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Last edited by Blocknroll on Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:00 pm 
Legend
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Purplegoo wrote:
frogboy wrote:
Anyone.....


having a laugh, but we shouldn't disregard them entirely.



Whatever the reason people play or whatever the insentive someones unhappy. So is the question not, why are the NAF sanctioning these or should they?

Hence my original point of asking why is there no "spare player" (insert solution here). It ties into why NAF taking away option to play unranked games, same issue different day.

Will there be official guideline about what and what is not exceptable to use as a early bird insentive and still gain sanctioning.

Like i said before, would be nice to give people the option of opting out but still feel welcome to go tournement, after all NAF is about promoting play is it not?

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:03 pm 
I'm Alan Partridge

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:23 am
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i would agree, the NAF should consider covering this in the sanctioning document and set out clearly that in-game bonus should not be related to entry fees in any way :)

and yes, i agree we should all play more bloodbowl, hence why im now running 6 tournaments a year instead of 2 :)

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:12 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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frogboy wrote:
Whatever the reason people play or whatever the insentive someones unhappy. So is the question not, why are the NAF sanctioning these or should they?


I don't know that early cheap entry (for instance) disincentives anyone who becomes available on the eve of a tournament. I'm yet to come across anyone who won't find an extra fiver on principle for a last minute entry, although I'm sure that person exists somewhere. I don't think these on-pitch advantage incentives warrant more regulation than some friendly advice from the TD myself (I think peer pressure, for want of a better phrase, is more likely to fix the 'issue' than the NAF getting heavy about it. Threads like these raise awareness that some coaches / potential attendees would prefer such incentives to not exist), but other views may be available.

frogboy wrote:
Hence my original point of asking why is there no "spare player" (insert solution here). It ties into why NAF taking away option to play unranked games, same issue different day.


As other posters have noted, I think this is probably a different issue to the one we're discussing in this thread? Every time I see the 'non-NAF 150' idea floated, someone with more technical knowledge than me says it's a really tough thing to do. So I guess that's still the answer.

frogboy wrote:
Will there be official guideline about what and what is not exceptable to use as a early bird insentive and still gain sanctioning.


Purplegoo above wrote:
...and this currently isn't against sanctioning policy ('currently' does not equate to 'expect change soon'). However, as TD, I have been quietly trying to advise TOs where I see potentially unsatisfactory things in submitted rulespacks. While not directly analogous to this discussion, where I've seen IP being enforced or the 4 minute rule, a friendly explanation that it might create bad feeling (have you considered this other workaround?) has worked out well so far. I think if / when the next one of these comes in, I'll engage in a similar discussion.


frogboy wrote:
Like i said before, would be nice to give people the option of opting out but still feel welcome to go tournement, after all NAF is about promoting play is it not?


Again, this is slightly OT, I think? However, I would encourage everyone to join the NAF. If an individual does not want to be a member but wants to attend tournaments, or indeed wants to run tournaments and does not want NAF sanctioning, I'll still be encouraging. People playing Blood Bowl = better. People being NAF playing NAF Blood Bowl = best.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:27 pm 
Legend
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Purplegoo wrote:
On-pitch rewards are unsatisfying because they threaten to impact results, and I think most people do care about results, to a lesser or greater degree. It goes without saying that results don't come before having a laugh, but we shouldn't disregard them entirely.


Speaking for myself, its this that I think rankles with me. I've said to couple of others in private but happy to say publicly that if I felt I could in any way do it honourably I would probably look to remove the in-game advantage I created but I made my bed so I'll lie in it! To change anything now would, I think, be more detrimental to general feeling than leaving things alone and would disrespect the effort those who did pay early made.

I would actually support the NAF in putting something that would have prevented what I did. As has been mentioned; the real affects with BUBBA look to be minimal as the vast majority of coaches will not be unduly impacted, most people will be playing on a level field. I live and learn :D

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:29 pm 
Legend
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What is this discussion about?

Title is "Early bird incentives and the NAF" :-?

Anyway have fun, cya :orc:

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:31 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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Loki wrote:
To change anything now would, I think, be more detrimental to general feeling than leaving things alone and would disrespect the effort those who did pay early made.


Sure, absolutely appreciate this. I hope you're not feeling personally got at here, as I don't think that's anyone's intention. It's there now, I think we'd probably mostly agree you go with it. But it's good to have the discussion, I think.

Quote:
I would actually support the NAF in putting something that would have prevented what I did. As has been mentioned; the real affects with BUBBA look to be minimal as the vast majority of coaches will not be unduly impacted, most people will be playing on a level field. I live and learn :D


Perhaps at some stage. For now, I'll be leaning on the 'friendly chat' approach. I've found it pretty useful so far, so I hope I'll continue having success with it!

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Following this with a bit of interest... to tackle the problem of people not paying until the last minute, for Boudica last year I gave out free Fan Factor for payments in advance, up to 3 (one per month paid in advance). Adding in 2 for having a painted team this meant realistically that everyone was on 2-5 FF, which makes a tiny difference in the grand scheme of things (and probably means that FAME +2 was less likely than normal).

I did hear some grumblings about on-pitch advantage, and know of at least 1 coach who didn't come because of it... which is part of the reason that for this year I got rid of that, and any other bonuses for early payers.

The result: with less than 2 months to go I've got 6 less people paid up. Which means its very unlikely there will be a raffle this year. Hey ho, I've covered hall costs at least and should hopefully have enough to get some trophies.

As for alternatives: there really don't seem to be many that work. I see a lot of "early-bird" discounts on price, but as someone who generally can't organise that far in advance I'm not sure its any fairer... should I have to pay £5 more just because I only find out a few days before that I can actually attend a tournament? I'd rather miss out on a couple of raffle tickets, or get a couple of FF less.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:51 pm 
I'm Alan Partridge

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loki, please please don't feel this is a discussion that in any way is going down the "Loki is a bad person and his tournament sucks" route.

As you say we have spoken in private, I do not wish for 1 second to change anything that already is agreed, I do think it's worth having a broad conversation about this though. And i really value your openness, input and questions about other ways to go. I also wish i had been able to say back in october "hey that looks fun i'd love to go :)"

Sandwich - can totally understand your points there, what is the answer? I dont know. Maybe the player base needs to acknowledge with their early signups that tournaments dont just happen. For example, I book my new (well not that new now) venue within a month of the ACC for the next year.

i'd LOVE to be able to book the bigger hall but its more like £200 a day instead of £100 a day and unless i knew with real certainty that we were going to get numbers in the mid 30s it would simply be madness to do that. Some years even the smaller room might prove over-budget

In a way it's why pubs/clubs etc are great venues as there's not usually any upfront costs

And if you can find a decent pub with a good room, reliable management (that dont lose ur booking every time) and ok food at £5 a head then even better!

the whole reason i can run these 7s tournaments this year is the club venue is £3 a persona nd i dont have to pay for anyone upfront so if 4 or 40 people turn up it makes no difference to me at all

in those circumstances the only last minute decision tends to be how much budget you've got left over for (more) prizes.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:06 pm 
Legend
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Just to be clear, I don't feel got at :D

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Sandwich wrote:
The result: with less than 2 months to go I've got 6 less people paid up. Which means its very unlikely there will be a raffle this year. Hey ho, I've covered hall costs at least and should hopefully have enough to get some trophies.


Was it me grumbling? ;)

You have also put a pretty big change into your rulespack for 2018, to be fair. I doubt that's put anyone off, but you could use the same logic to claim the raffle has sadly died due to the new gimmick. In reality, we'll never be able to prove a cause one way or the other. Could be the scheduling across the last games of the 6 Nations. Or a poorly timed nerd wedding. Or anything, really!

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:34 pm 
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Speaking from the point of view of someone who has only ever attended tournaments as opposed to running one (and I obviously understand the need for early payment); it is very rare that I know whether or not I will be able to attend a tournament until two or three weeks prior (and have managed to enter negotiations with the wife). I work Monday to Friday, so its not a rota issue - it's entirely down to other RL stuff taking priority.
In the past I have had to pull out of tournaments that I have paid for - sometimes I have received refunds, sometimes not. This is the main reason that I do not pay for events way in advance as a rule.

I understand that there needs to be a line in the sand beyond which the TO will have paid for venue, prizes, food....etc, and will not be able to refund without being out of pocket.
I wonder if TO's might find they get more early sign up if they make it clear whether or not they will refund tickets and up to what date in their rules pack. Its something I saw in the Squigbowl http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=44477 rules pack and thought what a good idea it was. For those who cant be bothered to hit the link - their event is on 22/04 and he is honouring refunds up until 08/04 - a fortnight before. And yes Ive noticed he doesn't have many signups!

My two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Hobnail wrote:
I understand that there needs to be a line in the sand beyond which the TO will have paid for venue, prizes, food....etc, and will not be able to refund without being out of pocket.
I wonder if TO's might find they get more early sign up if they make it clear whether or not they will refund tickets and up to what date in their rules pack. Its something I saw in the Squigbowl http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=44477 rules pack and thought what a good idea it was. For those who cant be bothered to hit the link - their event is on 22/04 and he is honouring refunds up until 08/04 - a fortnight before. And yes Ive noticed he doesn't have many signups!

I quite like this, and I think is a good idea.

Moreover, I saw in few tournaments give a gift for early sign up, like dice or tokens. That could be up to get a number of players or deadline date.

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:32 pm 
I'm Alan Partridge

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Hobnail, you make a very good point.
i was thinking with ACC and to a lesser extent ACT introducing a line that effectively says no refunds in the week that runs up to the event, by the wednesday for example ive calculated all the food costs and bought most of it, and one drop out is X peoples' food budget etc.

dreamscreator - dice and tokens would be an idea i like a lot too

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 Post subject: Re: Early bird incentives and the NAF
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:49 am 
Legend
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Interesting, I have always refunded anyone who paid and couldn't attend but I its been after the fact. So if you paid in November but said in December I'm off the list and didn't get refunded till March... Does that change things?

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