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 Post subject: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Going through my old BB stuff, I came across the old allies teams. The Chaos Pact team is the only one still going (presumably due to the heritage of the old Chaos All-Stars team), and I can barely find a thing about the Old World and Lustrian teams online. I figured it would at least be interesting to sefte what they would like like if they were shoehorned into the game in the same way.

So here is the Old World team I put together, which is pretty much just the Chaos Pact team (all linemen) with the skaven swapped for a dwarf.



0-12 Humans 50,000 6 3 3 8 None GSP A
0-1 Halfling 30,000 5 2 3 6 Animosity, Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty A GSP
0-1 Dwarf 70,000 4 3 2 9 Animosity, Block, Tackle, Thick Skull GS AP
0-1 Wood Elf 70,000 7 3 4 7 Animosity GA SP
0-1 Ogre 140,000 5 5 2 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team-Mate S GAP
0-1 Treeman 120,000 2 6 1 10 Loner, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Strong Arm, Take Root, Thick Skull, Throw Team-Mate S GAP
0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each

The Lustrian team is really just a group of humans backed up by various lizards and frogs, so it doesn't have the distinct racial variety. I know that originally it could include players from the Norse team, but they don't really fit IMO, which leaves it with just the one big guy. No chance of the one-turn thrown team-mate touchdown either. I'm not really happy with it.


0-12 Amazons 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge G ASP
0-1 Skink 60,000 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty A GSP
0-1 Saurus 80,000 6 4 1 9 None GS AP
0-1 Slaan 60,000 6 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs G ASP
0-1 Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull S GAP

0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:02 pm 
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cornixt wrote:
Going through my old BB stuff, I came across the old allies teams. The Chaos Pact team is the only one still going (presumably due to the heritage of the old Chaos All-Stars team), and I can barely find a thing about the Old World and Lustrian teams online. I figured it would at least be interesting to sefte what they would like like if they were shoehorned into the game in the same way.

So here is the Old World team I put together, which is pretty much just the Chaos Pact team (all linemen) with the skaven swapped for a dwarf.

0-12 Humans 50,000 6 3 3 8 None GSP A
0-1 Halfling 30,000 5 2 3 6 Animosity, Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty A GSP
0-1 Dwarf 70,000 4 3 2 9 Animosity, Block, Tackle, Thick Skull GS AP
0-1 Wood Elf 70,000 7 3 4 7 Animosity GA SP
0-1 Ogre 140,000 5 5 2 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team-Mate S GAP
0-1 Treeman 120,000 2 6 1 10 Loner, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Strong Arm, Take Root, Thick Skull, Throw Team-Mate S GAP
0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each


I've always liked the idea of this team roster. I think if it only gets two Big Guys and loses mutation access across the board, it needs something additional to be able to compete. I would suggest lower re-roll costs and the addition of a High or Pro Elf, which would give them 2 AG4 players instead of just one. Another possibility would be to keep the roster as is but double all of the non-Human, non-Big Guy position limits. Even then, you're just talking about 2 Dwarves with Block and ST access (opposed to 4 Blitzers on a human team) and 2 Wood Elves with AG4 and AG access. 2 Halflings would be only marginally improved over one.

cornixt wrote:
The Lustrian team is really just a group of humans backed up by various lizards and frogs, so it doesn't have the distinct racial variety. I know that originally it could include players from the Norse team, but they don't really fit IMO, which leaves it with just the one big guy. No chance of the one-turn thrown team-mate touchdown either. I'm not really happy with it.

0-12 Amazons 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge G ASP
0-1 Skink 60,000 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty A GSP
0-1 Saurus 80,000 6 4 1 9 None GS AP
0-1 Slaan 60,000 6 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs G ASP
0-1 Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull S GAP

0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each


The Norse are explorers, and they've been documented as reaching Lustria before, so I think from a background perspective (almost typed "fluff", JT-Y!), you could include them here. They have a settlement called Skeggi in Lustria. Additionally, the Skaven of Clan Pestilens have long had a foothold in Lustria. Additionally, there is part of Lustria called the "Vampire Coast", founded by Luthor Harkon, a vampire who got shipwrecked there. (info found here: http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lustria)

So, how about this roster?

0-12 Amazons 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Norse Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Skaven Lineman 7 3 3 7 Animosity G ASPM
0-1 Skink 60,000 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Animosity A GSP
0-1 Saurus 80,000 6 4 1 9 None, Animosity GS AP
0-1 Slaan 60,000 6 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Vampire 110,000 6 4 4 8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate, Animosity GAS P (Blood Lust can be fulfilled by biting Amazons or Norse)
0-1 Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull, Animosity S GAP
0-1 Rat Ogre 150,000 6 5 2 8 Frenzy, Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal, Animosity S GAP

0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each

This *might* be too strong, although it would lack the one-turn scoring potential of the Chaos and Old World teams, because you'd have a lineman position that gets a skill they don't normally have access to (Dodge) and can turn into a team of Blodgers pretty quick. But it would be fun to playtest. You have two faster than average players in the Skink and Skaven, and a Saurus and a Vampire to take the place of a third ST5 player. (The total maxxed out ST and AG of this team would be equal to that of the Chaos Pact team, just distributed differently.) But it has the same animosity downside as the Underworld team (even the Amazons and the Norse don't get along well in Lustria), and no access to the mutations the Chaos Pact gets.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:38 pm 
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I always liked the idea of a 'Lizardslann' team which is a lizardmen team with added slann linemen (and Animosity). Then I can have all of my herpetological needs seen to with only using the one team! haha

Even though they are found in Lustria and so technically fit the whole Lustrian Team theme, I'm not feeling the skaven players. For me, the skaven lineman is removed and the rat ogre replaced for a Shambling Undead mummy (it could come from the aforementioned Undead realm known as the Vampire Coast, or you could fluff it and have it simply wander out of the Spine of Sotek mountains and onto the team as Lustria is based on South America, the Spine of Sotek mountains are the Andes and the Inca's performed mummification in certain circumstances. The Inca in this case would simply be classed as pygmies).


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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:31 pm 
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SlannMann wrote:
Even though they are found in Lustria and so technically fit the whole Lustrian Team theme, I'm not feeling the skaven players. For me, the skaven lineman is removed and the rat ogre replaced for a Shambling Undead mummy (it could come from the aforementioned Undead realm known as the Vampire Coast, or you could fluff it and have it simply wander out of the Spine of Sotek mountains and onto the team as Lustria is based on South America, the Spine of Sotek mountains are the Andes and the Inca's performed mummification in certain circumstances. The Inca in this case would simply be classed as pygmies).


Would that be a stunty Mummy? :o :D

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Milo wrote:
SlannMann wrote:
Even though they are found in Lustria and so technically fit the whole Lustrian Team theme, I'm not feeling the skaven players. For me, the skaven lineman is removed and the rat ogre replaced for a Shambling Undead mummy (it could come from the aforementioned Undead realm known as the Vampire Coast, or you could fluff it and have it simply wander out of the Spine of Sotek mountains and onto the team as Lustria is based on South America, the Spine of Sotek mountains are the Andes and the Inca's performed mummification in certain circumstances. The Inca in this case would simply be classed as pygmies).


Would that be a stunty Mummy? :o :D


*chuckle* :D


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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Milo wrote:
So, how about this roster?

0-12 Amazons 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Norse Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Skaven Lineman 7 3 3 7 Animosity G ASPM
0-1 Skink 60,000 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Animosity A GSP
0-1 Saurus 80,000 6 4 1 9 None, Animosity GS AP
0-1 Slaan 60,000 6 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Vampire 110,000 6 4 4 8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate, Animosity GAS P (Blood Lust can be fulfilled by biting Amazons or Norse)
0-1 Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull, Animosity S GAP
0-1 Rat Ogre 150,000 6 5 2 8 Frenzy, Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal, Animosity S GAP

0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each

This *might* be too strong, although it would lack the one-turn scoring potential of the Chaos and Old World teams, because you'd have a lineman position that gets a skill they don't normally have access to (Dodge) and can turn into a team of Blodgers pretty quick. But it would be fun to playtest. You have two faster than average players in the Skink and Skaven, and a Saurus and a Vampire to take the place of a third ST5 player. (The total maxxed out ST and AG of this team would be equal to that of the Chaos Pact team, just distributed differently.) But it has the same animosity downside as the Underworld team (even the Amazons and the Norse don't get along well in Lustria), and no access to the mutations the Chaos Pact gets.

You don't particularly need the TTM option for 1TTD, when you have a ROgre on the roster to chainpush the skink. It admittedly requires more thought than your standard "I'll just lob this goblin/Halfling down the pitch" 1TTD, but isn't too bad nonetheless. There would appear to be too many linemen types too and a starting player with Block (along with the dodge linewomen) sounds tasty.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:21 pm 
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mawph wrote:
Milo wrote:
So, how about this roster?

0-12 Amazons 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Norse Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Skaven Lineman 7 3 3 7 Animosity G ASPM
0-1 Skink 60,000 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Animosity A GSP
0-1 Slaan 60,000 6 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Vampire 110,000 6 4 4 8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate, Animosity GAS P (Blood Lust can be fulfilled by biting Amazons or Norse)
0-1 Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull, Animosity S GAP
0-1 Rat Ogre 150,000 6 5 2 8 Frenzy, Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal, Animosity S GAP

0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each


You don't particularly need the TTM option for 1TTD, when you have a ROgre on the roster to chainpush the skink. It admittedly requires more thought than your standard "I'll just lob this goblin/Halfling down the pitch" 1TTD, but isn't too bad nonetheless. There would appear to be too many linemen types too and a starting player with Block (along with the dodge linewomen) sounds tasty.


True about the 1TTD, although I think sometimes Frenzy with the ROgre makes the chain push harder. (Sometimes you want your second block to come from a different direction.)

Okay, what if we look at the Chaos Renegades again, and take a page from their example. The Renegades DON'T have access to a Chaos Dwarf, but they can add one as a star. So what if we remove the Saurus but give them access to Siliibili? Means you could still field a Saurus if you wanted to for background purposes, but they truly aren't linemen anyways.

That brings us to four lineman types (three allied, one core), three big guys, and one stunty, same as the Chaos Renegades team, and it also reduces the power level some, which probably brings it more into line with the other two teams. Sound better?

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Skaven and ROgre shouldn't be playing for a Lustrian team imo. Not only do they not have any place in the team, no one would take the Skaven lineman as he is no where near as good as an amazon linewoman. I don't really like the vampire being there either. again its the wrong location. Norse lineman is fine as the Norse have settlements there, and the Amazons were at one point Norse Valkyries (Norse female warriors).

Slann, skink, krox, Zons all fit fine. I would look at adding Pygmies as well. There is a Pygmy team mentioned in BB 2nd Ed Companion book called - Spearcamp Chieftains.

0-12 Amazons 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Norse Runner 7 3 3 7 90k Block, Dauntless, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Pygmy 6247 Dodge, Animosity A GSP
0-1 Saurus 6419 GS 80k
0-1 Slaan Blitzer 110,000 7 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs, Diving Tackle, Jump Up Animosity GAS P
0-1 Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull, Animosity S GAP

0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each

The reason I went with that stat line for my pygmies is I have a Pygmy Team I created on Fumbbl - https://fumbbl.com/help:PygmyT they are loads of fun. They die in their droves because they have no big guy but with ag en masse they can be pretty nifty :)

You should also check a Tilean Roster Me and Plasmoid created as there is some overlap with your pact teams here - https://fumbbl.com/help:TileaT.

Back on topic though, you could obviously change the pygmy to a stat line you like as it is a player that does not exist yet in official rules.
Just because its a Pact team doesn't mean it has to be big guy centric. That roster above is very boring and lacks skill access. I think you should keep the Saurus, maybe add norse Runner rather than a lineman you could also change the Slann player to a Blitzer or Catcher rather than a lineman. Just to make it a bit more interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:43 am 
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garion wrote:
Skaven and ROgre shouldn't be playing for a Lustrian team imo. Not only do they not have any place in the team, no one would take the Skaven lineman as he is no where near as good as an amazon linewoman. I don't really like the vampire being there either. again its the wrong location. Norse lineman is fine as the Norse have settlements there, and the Amazons were at one point Norse Valkyries (Norse female warriors).


Well, many people don't take the Skaven on the basic Chaos Pact roster either. Some do for fluff reasons, some enjoy the extra MA. As far as the background goes, Skaven have existed on the Lustrian continent for a long period of time (although I think some recent background indicates that the Lizardmen may have pushed the Skaven settlements off the continent.) I cited all this background in my previous post.

I was specifically trying to build a team using the following basic guidelines:

1) only using existing player stat lines
2) only using players that could realistically appear in Lustria, based on the background
3) following the 3 BG/1 stunty/all linemen pattern of the Chaos Renegades roster, for balance purposes

Certainly, you could vary from that -- nothing says that all mixed-race teams have to be the same, though I think you'd need to do a lot more play testing of a roster that varies significantly from an existing one. But doing that didn't fit within the constrains of the guidelines I was working with.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:37 am 
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I don't remember there being skaven in lustria tbh. However it's not relevant. The reason they look so out of place is you have a 'good' team. Zons, slann. Lizards, Norse (in there 3rd ed wfb vikings form not their post 5th ed chaos form) then skaven who are alligned with chaos. They wouldn't play together imo. Iirc in 2nd ed it used to indicate player race alliance good evil, chaos, undead


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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:40 am 
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garion wrote:
I don't remember there being skaven in lustria tbh. However it's not relevant. The reason they look so out of place is you have a 'good' team. Zons, slann. Lizards, Norse (in there 3rd ed wfb vikings form not their post 5th ed chaos form) then skaven who are alligned with chaos. They wouldn't play together imo. Iirc in 2nd ed it used to indicate player race alliance good evil, chaos, undead


According to the Warhammer Wiki on Lustria:

Quote:
The Slann record that Lustria was originally attached to the Southlands. As part of the Old Ones' Great Plan, the two were separated by the Great Ocean and changed from barren wastelands into fertile jungles. It was around this time that most of the Lizardmen temple-cities were founded and populated.[2a]

When Chaos first entered this world, Lustria wasn't as dangerous a continent when it first came into being. In desperation, they enchanted the jungle, turning their surroundings into a deathtrap full of carnivorous plants, living quicksand pits and teeming swarms of insects whose stings could crack Dragon scale. Rivers were redirected to impede the daemonic advance and volcanoes rose and erupted to slow their hellish progress. After the Great Catastrophe in which Chaos entered the world, Skaven were the first of the younger species to vie for control of Lustria. There, Clan Pestilens infected many Lizardmen with a plague that weakened their power and caused many of their cities to fall into ruin. This was only reversed with the rise of the Serpent God Sotek and his prophet Tehenhauin, around the Imperial Year 0, who drove the Skaven out of Lustria.[2a]

Before the discovery of Lustria by the Norses, a trading vessel from the Old World was caught in the fierce currents off the coast of Araby and swept into the swirling waters of Ulthuan. The wrecked ship was washed up months later on the southeastern shore of Lustria. Unbeknownst to the crew, one of their passengers, Luthor Harkon, had been a vampire and although all the humans died in the disaster, the vampire and his offspring lived and founded a new realm of Undead in the New World, known as the Vampire Coast. The first human to reach Lustria (and survive) was the Norse seafarer Lost Erik, who recorded landing on an island just off the coast of Lustria and looting gold from Lizardmen. He failed to realize the extent of the land and it was drawn on maps as a small cluster of islands.

Lost Erik's son, named Losteriksson, was the first Old Worlder to reach the mainland of Lustria. After trekking inland in search of treasure, Losteriksson and his men left Lustria as rich men, only to return and settle down where they first landed, naming the settlement Skeggi, after Losteriksson's daughter, the first human to be born in the New World. Since Losteriksson returned with gold and riches, Lustria has been a popular destination for adventurers seeking to make a fortune and this has resulted in several Lizardmen cities being looted. The increase in traffic to Lustria has also increased the number of ships wrecked on its coast, which has served to swell the number of helpless victims the Undead of the Vampire Coast can add to their ranks.[3a]


Also note the following from the 2nd Edition Star Players book, under Mixed Race Teams, pg. 40:

Racial Alignment Table
Code:
Dwarf or Elf                                       Good
Dark Elf, Goblin, Orc, Skaven or Chaotic           Chaotic
Human, Halfling, Norse, Skeleton, Slann or Were    Neutral


So we're talking about mixing Neutral (Norse, Undead, Slann, presumably Lizards and Amazons) with a small group of Chaotic (Skaven Lineman, Rat Ogre), not mixing Good and Evil. And, you know, I tried to represent this uneasy alliance by giving them all Animosity.

So I was looking at both the background history of Lustria, plus the background of Blood Bowl, while trying to mimic the existing roster (for balance purposes) and showcase a significant number of player types that are NOT available on the Good or Chaos mixed team rosters. I think it would be good for the Neutral Lustrian mixed race team to have three big guys like the Chaos one -- but you could make an argument for an Amazonian Treeman to take the place of the Rat Ogre (see second paragraph of the above quoted background.)

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:53 am 
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No issue with Skaven on a Lustrian team, but I don't think a RO should be - different clan makes the ROs from that which was (is) in Lustria.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:01 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
No issue with Skaven on a Lustrian team, but I don't think a RO should be - different clan makes the ROs from that which was (is) in Lustria.


Now that's a fair cop -- Clan Moulder has most of the Rat Ogres, not Clan Pestilens. I don't think it's TOO much of a stretch to say that Clan Pestilens has one on loan from Clan Moulder -- it's not like they are banned from WHFB Clan Pestilens armies, I don't think -- but I can understand the concern.

But is this team viable with just a Kroxigor and a Vampire?

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:50 pm 
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hmm didnt know about the rats in lustria, that said I still don't like it. Skaven are pure evil and zons are good imo.
I just don't like skaven playing with anything other than Chaos aligned it seems very wrong.

You could go 2 kroxigor, 1 being the krox the other being the giant toad from slann with the big tongue standing in for the prehensile tail.


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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:31 pm 
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Milo wrote:
Now that's a fair cop -- Clan Moulder has most of the Rat Ogres, not Clan Pestilens. I don't think it's TOO much of a stretch to say that Clan Pestilens has one on loan from Clan Moulder -- it's not like they are banned from WHFB Clan Pestilens armies, I don't think -- but I can understand the concern.

A "loan" player really doesn't fit with it being a Lustrian team then.
Tbh, I think a DE lineman (from the north) works better than a loanee from the Old World.

Quote:
But is this team viable with just a Kroxigor and a Vampire?

Probably - it's got more starting skills than a Pact team, and another ST4 player.
Plus better to start a bit underpowered (if if is) and improve than the other way round.

garion wrote:
zons are good

No, decidedly neutral.

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