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 Post subject: Re: Creating your own team for Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:23 pm 
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Plasmoid ... don't agree with how you did that. I did it by player type which is how it needs to be done. Just wanted to post to anyone seeing this ... I don't think you can just list everything with a blanket policy.

Tom

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 Post subject: Re: Creating your own team for Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Fair enough.
But there are some overlap between the types in your system too.
I'm hard pressed to come up with a player who should pay 20k for Shadowing or Pass Block.
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Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Creating your own team for Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 pm 
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Khemri breaks rule nr. 2 - their total 16man str is 56.

Edit - [Read "Other notes" #2 - a known issue. - Darkson]

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 Post subject: Re: Creating your own team for Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:39 pm 
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Yes... Khmeri break a lot of things ;) Back when mummies had general access on normal rolls, they broke my team!


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 Post subject: Re: Creating your own team for Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:13 pm 
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How much would you value Secret Weapon at as a negative skill?

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 Post subject: Re: Creating your own team for Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:04 am 
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Long Bomb:
I quite like the guidelines above. They have several good points, and very interesting insights. But I also have the feeling it is more an emulator than a creator.
And I think this thread should also offer a “blanket formula” to help coaches who want to think “out of the box” and create more experimental teams and players.
For example, it could offer a general way of calculating costs, and then, in a second step, offer the guidelines above if someone wants to make sure it is „a balanced team/player staying within certain rules“.
I've designed about 20+ teams, and if I would have used the guidelines above, I would have hit a glass ceiling during that process.
(For example: Sprite 5/2/4/7 Jump Up, Leap, Side Step AP/GS. A player I consider as balanced. Either in itself or in the confines of its team (which can balance too). But not allowed according to the guidelines above. And without knowledge on how to expand the calculation, it would take a bit of guesswork to assign a salary.)

The following is the formula I've used to create players' salaries for years.
(Note: The following is an intro, giving background, and you may skip to the next headline “blanket formula” if you don't want to know how it came about or what it is, and what I'm thinking about the process of designing teams.)
I believe it comes from the same source. At least I'm pretty sure I've got it originally from Galak's homepage (some years ago), but I'm not sure if he is also the author. I thought it said on the page that it was originally designed by Jervis, but I may have misread that. And of course, checking is tricky as Galak's great archive had been ripped to pieces a long time ago, when GW forced him to take it all down. And I don't think it can be found any more.
The formula I've found back then appeared to be for 4th edition. And as I considered it as „official“ I did not make any changes to it. I've only expanded it by marking 4th edition elements as such and added skills that had not been included yet (like secret weapons) or adjusted by CRP (like Stand Firm).
This formula did serve me rather well, and calculates the salary of most players fairly accurately.
Sometimes it is 10k off the mark, but when designing, you need to do some contemplating and creative adjusting anyway, as there is no “absolute method”. Simply for the reason that salaries, players and skills have been adjusted over the years, creating more and more exceptions. In fact I'm not even sure if there ever was an absolute method players' costs adhered to. In fact it always may have been just a guideline.

(Note: even the formulas in the original post are not 100% on point. They calculate a Human & Skaven Thrower at 80k, a High Elf Thrower at 100k, Amazon Thrower at 60k and a Wood Elf Catcher at 100k. These are special cases caused by the relations between salaries being so irregular that a single formula struggles to be accurate (e.g. if you would fix it, then the Orc Thrower would turn out to be overpriced). You can go back and tweak it some more, and eventually add enough “special rules” to hit the sweet spot. But I'm not even sure if that is necessary, as design is always a chaotic process that should understand the matter at hand (guidelines) but does not necessarily need perfectly fitting harnesses (that's what riders (playtesters) have whips for). However, it shows a problem, which is: you can't blindly trust a formula. But you need to understand the system and learn it quirks, too.
Another example is Leap and VLL for 5k each. I understand this as an inbuilt discount for Slann. As a standard AG 3 player receiving both skills should pay 20k (10k each) for it, as an AG 4 player does for Leap. However, I wouldn't agree of removing the discount from Slann. But what it does show is that a method that works for Slann, does not necessarily work for everyone else. And if you create a catcher (for chaos) you may not want to count Leap/VLL as only 10k.)


Another important point is to realize that these formulas can not be read automatically as „the true value of stats and skills“. That's an entirely different table.
Of course they reflect power level to some degree, but it's also about proportions and relations. In fact I would even say power level is more reflected by the actual team/player design while salary is more about the starting team (TV1000 or TV1100) and TV comparison (aka handicap). Of course, it all plays into each other, but you shouldn't assume you can balance or improve the Human Catcher by dropping its cost (other than making it eventually a cheap bench player for TV-shapers, but the on field performance won't change). (It's just weird that GW & Cyanide keep trying it. Especially the way they do it. Changing the salary of Flesh Golems, or the re-roll costs of Chaos is one thing. Doing it for Human and Orc is a placebo.)

You can make adjustments to the formula below, if you want to, but mind you that if you do, you may not be able any more to „reproduce“ the salary of old players (3rd & 4th edition).
Still, meaningful changes could include to adjust skill values (especially Strong Arm from +3 to +2, which has also little consequence as it has never been used until the Treeman in CRP, as far as I'm aware), or make them more detailed, like suggested in posts above (Shadowing/Sprint based on MA, Strong Arm on AG, Animosity if P access etc.). Basically evolving the formula to something similar as the original post (i.e. “not a blanket policy” but more based on “types” or “stats”.)
But I would keep adjustments to a limit and rather adjust a player's salary individually and based on experience after calculating it (e.g. if you know that Shadowing is a poor skill, you may feel more inclined in giving a 10k discount, making Shadowing +1 in hindsight, and so on).

(Note: If you do have to adjust than do it carefully. For example, in the guidelines above it says that Saurus and Kroxigors receive a 10k discount. I don't fully understand the matter, but by my knowledge this seems to be the result of adjusting MA6 to 30k for Big Guys and Blockers. This, as I understand it, is a balance change. And one I agree with, as MA6 is not balanced by AG1 on those positions. And the Saurus really could cost 90k. However, if you calculate the Rat Ogre you'll find it also receives a discount of 10k, and consequently all Big Guys with MA 6 receive a discount atm. Which is one of those outcomes adjustments can have. If you return MA 6 to +10k (Big Guys) and +20k (Blockers) as it is in the blanket formula I use, then both Saurus and Kroxigor are priced accurately. (So much for the truth of numbers...).
Another example is that the formula above fixes the common 10k discount for ST3/AG4 catchers (which appears in the blanket formula below). And it seems to do that by counting MA7 as +10k only. I do think that this change corrects more than it breaks, but, still, the Wood Elf Throwers only calculate as 80k now.
These are two examples, but most changes you make will mess with relations and create a give and take. And you should keep that in mind when adjusting values as it can become very quickly quite twisted.)


Anyway, the following blanket option will give you more freedom on the expense of accuracy and balance. Which you will have to compensate with experience.

The “blanket formula”:
Each player starts with 5 points.
Then add points for MA, ST, AG, AV (see below) and skills (see lists below, but default is -2/+2 per skill).

MA 2 is -4, MA 3 is -3, MA 4 is -2, MA 5 is -1, MA 6 is 0, MA 7 is +2, MA 8 is +3, MA 9 is +4.
ST 1 is -6, ST 2 is -3, ST 3 is 0, ST 4 is +6, ST 5 is +9, ST 6 is +12, ST 7 is +18, ST 8 is +21. The formula is: points=((ST-3)*3). If ST > 3 add +3. If ST > 6 add +6.
AG 1 is -4, AG 2 is -2, AG 3 is 0, AG 4 is +2, AG 5 is +4. The formula is: points=((AG-3)*2)
AV 5 is -4, AV 6 is -3, AV 7 is -2, AV 8 is 0, AV 9 is +1, AV 10 is +3.
(Note, that the guidelines above added that AV 7 is -1 if the player receives no further skills or stat changes. A rule, you may use here, too.)

Spikes AV bonus and Very Long Legs (3rd/4th) MA bonus are added in addition to the skill points.

Add another +1 if the player's AG and ST are both > 3.
Add another +1 if the player starts with Block & Dodge. (Note, interestingly the guidelines change this to +2 for Block (instead +3) and +2 for Blodge (instead +1). Which can make sense.)

If total points are 10 or below; salary=(points*10.000).
If total points are above 10; salary=100.000+((points-10)*5.000) (fractions are usually summed down)

Note that the costs in the rulebook can differ from the calculated ones by 10k. Most notably are Thrower and ST3/AG4 Catcher who both sometimes did get a 10k discount, and the Block skill which is rather regularly added as +2 only (in fact almost throughout). To counteract that it may help to compare the calculated cost with those of similar positions (Thrower/Blitzer etc.) before deciding on the final cost. This helps to figure in such common adjustments, like Block as only +2 or the 10k discount on some Throwers, or that Catchers get a 10k discount when they touch or break 100k. (see the comparison method below which can be used as an indicator, but it's best if you calculate all salaries once and make a comparison list to get a feel for it where the formula is accurate and were it isn't. A lot of work, but calculating salaries really is not so much about using the formula as it is about learning the system).
The only other noteworthy discrepancies (difference of more than 10k) are the Vampire and Treeman (Halfling version), but both are rather special cases.

Skills
Note: That some of the following skills have been given sources (i.e. 3rd, 4th & CRP). This was necessary to distinguish different versions. (Most noteworthy are Stand Firm, Stakes, Stunty, Titchy & Foul Appearance. For nega-traits and secret weapons see the comments below.)

All skills, in these lists are rules that had been created by fans (mostly) and officially published at one point or another. Their status is vague, but for veterans today there is little difference between random house-rules and official rules.
If puzzled, I occasionally had to give skills or effects a name (like Slowpoke or Thrall), as they had none. And consequently you may have no way of knowing or finding out what published rule it refers to unless you have very obscure and detailed knowledge of BB (i.e. don't bother GW with calls and questions, please).

Skill lists:
-3: Bionic (penalty roll 8+), Blood Lust, Deathroller (4th) (SW: +0), Dislike (if P access), Easily Confused (or halve the final cost instead?), Hobgoblin, Off for a bite, Really Stupid (4th), Sappy, Secret Weapon, Take Root (4th), Unstable.

-2: Big Guy, Bone-head (4th), Distrust, Goblin (3rd), Halfling (3rd), Loner, Mind-wiped, Niggling Injury, No Hands, Slowpoke, Wild Animal (4th).

-1: Always Hungry, Animosity (race) (FO version), Dislike (if no P access), Revert to Human Form, Righteous Anger, Savage, Stakes (4th) (SW: +1), Woof Woof.

0: Animosity, Blood Greed, Decay, Double Progression, Head Coach, Immortal, Insatiable Appetite, Nurgle's Rot, Odin's Codpiece (+AV bonus), Penalty Roll (if inbuilt) (if not: 7/8/9+: -3 & 10+: -2), Pump Wagon (and halve ST points) (SW: +3), Spikes (+AV bonus), Splat!!, Squig (SW: +3), Squighopper, Thrall, Treeman.

+1: Blunderbuss (4th) (SW +3), Bombardier (if AG < 4) (SW: +4), Dazzler, Disturbing Presence, Flyer, Frenzy, Horns, Leap (if AG < 4), Pass (if AG < 4), Past Master, Poisoned Dagger (4th) (SW: +3), Right Stuff, Spike (SW: +3), Stakes (CRP), Stiff Arm, Stunty (CRP), Thick Skull, Throw Team-mate, Thrud's Fans, Titchy (CRP), Toss Team-mate, Very Long Legs (+MA bonus).

+2: Accurate, Ball & Chain (and halve ST points) (SW: same), Bombardier (if AG > 3) (SW: +5), Break Tackle, Catch, Daemonic Aura, Dirty Player, Diving Catch, Diving Tackle, Dodge, Dump-off, Extra Arms, Extra Leg, Fan Favourite, Fend, Flash, Foul Appearance (CRP), Grab, Hail Mary Pass, Hook Kick, Hypnotic Eyebrows, Hypnotic Gaze, Juggernaut, Jump Up, Kantona Kick, Kick, Kick-off return, Leap (if AG > 3), Marauder, Mighty Blow, Nerves of Steel, Pass (if AG > 3), Pass Block, Perfect Spiral, Piling On, Pogo-Stick (4th) (SW: +4), Pooch Kick, Prehensile Tail, Pro, Push, Safe Throw, Shadowing, Side Step, Sneaky Git, Split, Sprint, Stab (CRP), Stand Firm (CRP), Stink Bomb (if AG < 4) (SW: +5), Stoneskin, Strip Ball, Strong Leg, Sure Feet,Sure Hands, Tackle, Trip Up, Two Heads, Wrestle.

+3: Annoying, Aspect (+6 is more fitting?), Big Hand, Block, Chainsaw (SW: +6), Claw, Dauntless, Dirty Kick, Doom Diver (SW: +6) (or +5 & SW: +8?), Foul Appearance (4th), Guard, Leader, Multiple Block, Razor Sharp Claws/Fangs, Regeneration, Shower Attack, Staff (SW: +6), Stand Firm (4th), Stink Bomb (if AG > 3) (SW: +6), Stomp, Strong Arm (+2 only?), Stunty (3rd), Tentacles, Titchy (4th), Wings.

CRP had an increase of costs for the Big Guys. Wild Animal +40k, Bone-head +30k, Really Stupid +20k and Take Root -10k.
The following points can balance it out by replacing the points of the ones marked as (4th):
-5: Take Root (CRP) (if ST > 4) (may be fine at -3 if Stand Firm and Strong Arm count both as 2). (could also apply to: Off for a bite/Sappy/Unstable)
+1: Really Stupid (CRP) (if ST > 4)
+4: Bone-head (CRP) (if ST > 4)
+6: Wild Animal (CRP) (if ST > 4)

SW (Secret Weapons): The skills are listed under the points the skill should cost when it comes automatically with an ejection skill (SW) or Penalty Roll (i.e. the points for “secret weapon” or the “inbuilt Penalty Roll” (as it was in 3rd/4th) are already subtracted). The points in brackets after the skill name are the points the skill should cost without those inbuilt Penalty Rolls (i.e. (SW: +#) is the skill's “actual” value, from which you subtract -3 (if adding SW) or -3/-2 depending on the Penalty Roll the weapon had in 3rd/4th edition).

Ball & Chain: In CRP I halve the points for ST (only +9 for ST7). In 4th I've added half the points for the ST B&C granted the player during blocks (that was +6 points for ST 6). This offsets the disability to select a target.

Adjustments
I had to make some very difficult calls to decide on the points for some skills. And beside in depth knowledge of BB and hours of contemplating game scenarios. I went mostly by comparing to already rated skills, trying to take apart and emulate existing salaries and eventually creating the following definitions for orientation:
-3/+3 are the most powerful or devastating skills, a good example for -3 is Off for a bite.
-2/+2 is default.
-1/+1 are flavour skills who have a limited effect or require a set up (like Right Stuff), or are ambiguous.
+/-0 are skills that have no influence on the game itself (like Nurgle's Rot which is post match only), or are ambiguous.

These are all adjustments I've made to the original document (does not list skills added as default, i.e. as +2/-2). So if you remove the following skills you'll get the exact same formula that I've found on the internet all those years back:
Animosity: 0 (this is how it's applied, it arguably could be -1, and if the player has P access even -2), Animosity (race) (FO version): -1, Annoying: +3, Aspect: +3, Bionic: -3, Blood Greed: +0, Blood Lust: -3, Blunderbuss (4th): +1, Bombardier (if AG < 4): +1, Chainsaw: +3, Dazzler: +1, Decay: 0, Deathroller (4th): -3, Dirty Kick: +3, Dislike: -3 (if P access), Dislike: -1 (if no P access), Disturbing Presence: +1, Doom Diver: +3, Double Progression: 0, Easily Confused: -3 (or halve final cost?), Flyer: +1, Foul Appearance (CRP): +2, Head Coach: +0, Hobgoblin: -3, Immortal: +0 (no heal), Insatiable Appetite: +0, Nurgle's Rot: 0, Odin's Codpiece: +0 (+ AV bonus), Past Master: +1 (consisting of Retired: -3, The Fans go wild: +1, The ref's favourite: +3, Memorable: +0), Penalty Roll: +0 (inbuilt, but 9+ or lower is -3, 10+ or greater -2), Poisoned Dagger: +1, Pump Wagon: 0 (& halve ST), Revert to Human Form: -1, Righteous Anger: -1, Sappy: -3, Savage: -1, Secret Weapon: -3, Shower Attack: +3, Spike: +1, Splat!!: +0 (too random), Squig: +0, Squighopper: +0, Staff: +3, Stakes (4th): -1, Stakes (CRP): +1, Stand Firm (CRP): +2, Stiff Arm: +1, Stink Bomb: (if AG > 3) +3, Stomp: +3, Thrall: +0 (although I see it as +1), Thrud's Fans: +1, Titchy (CRP): +1, Toss team-mate: +1, Treeman: +0, Unstable: -3, Wings: +3, Woof Woof: -1.


Addendum, dum, dum, dum, duM, dUM, DUM, DUM...
The following is another very simple method based on comparing player's within their position. Like a Human Lineman to a High Elf Lineman, etc. (That's how I did it before finding the formula above.)
This is a rather rough way of doing it (and you shouldn't take it too serious) but as it is surprisingly accurate (in most cases) it can be used as a quick rule of thumb.

In 1 of 3 cases this method differs by 10k when emulating CRP salaries, which isn't a much larger margin than with the “blanket formula”.
The only real discrepancy (of 20k) are Zombies, Dwarf Lineman, Thro-Ra, Snotlings and some Centers (Fanatic, Tomb Guardian, Treeman, Treeman (Halfling version), Beast of Nurgle), all for varies reasons, but everything else is on point.

Salary through comparisons:
(Simply assign your player to its appropriate position and compare it to the player type in brackets then add or subtract the stated costs (usually 10k) for each difference in stats or skills from the salary of the player in brackets. The final result is your player's salary).
For example a Skaven Lineman I would have to compare to a Human Lineman, the difference is +1 MA and -1 AV, which means I add 10k and subtract 10k from the Human Lineman's salary (50k) and that's the Skaven Lineman's salary (50k). Stupidly simple, but it works.

LINEMAN (Human Lineman(50k)/Lineorc): Each difference is +/-10.000. Except: Agility is 20.000. Animosity, Right Stuff, Stunty, Thrall and Titchy is 00.000. Decay is -10.000.

THROWER/RUNNER (white) (Human Thrower(70k)/Skaven Thrower): Each difference is +/-10.000. Except: Agility is 20.000. Animosity, Stunty and Thrall is 00.000. Secret Weapon is -10.000

(Note: it can argued if the Orc Thrower shouldn't be the standard type. But it makes no difference other than determine who is under-priced and who is overpriced (i.e. you can just keep turning it upside down). But according to the formula the Human Thrower is under-priced by 10k. And as this position is rather weak, I feel that's the better player to compare Throwers too. Otherwise every comparison will suggest to make all Throwers 10k more expensive. Then again you also don't want to under-price every Thrower by 10k. In the end you probably have to base your decision on what type of team you've got (i.e. pass play proficient or not).)


CATCHER (yellow) (Human Catcher (70k)/Ghoul): Each difference is +/-10.000. Except: ST is 20.000. Animosity, Right Stuff, Stunty and Titchy is 00.000.

BLITZER (red) (Human Blitzer(90k)): Each difference is +/-10.000. Except: Strength is 20.000. Animosity, Stunty and Thrall is 00.000. Secret Weapon is -10.000.

(Note: If you would use the Orc Blitzer as standard for this method almost all Blitzers in the game would turn out to be overpriced. So it doesn't work that well. Please notice that this method only compares costs in relation to other players, and works as long as you maintain those relations. It does not really establish if a player is over- or under-priced. If you look at the formula both players are actually priced accurately (i.e. MA 6 to 7 is worth more than AV 8 to 9). This also starts to show the eventual boundaries for this rather simple comparison method. And it becomes abundantly clear when you stack up skills on a player. It flat out stops working. (That was also the point when I needed to search for a more detailed formula). Still, comparing still works in these simple confines.)

BLOCKER (green) (Black Orc(80k)): Each difference is +/-10.000. Blood Lust is -10.000.

CENTER (Ogre(140k)): Each difference is +/-10.000. Stunty and Throw Team-mate is 00.000. Always Hungry, Decay, Loner, No Hands, Secret Weapon and nega-traits (B-h, RS, TR and WA) is -10.000.

The only tricky bit is to figure out in which category a player belongs who is not assigned a position by name (like Norse Lineman). In that case a(nother) rule of thumb is: Lineman (0-12/16), Thrower/Runner (Sure Hands, Pass and/or P access), Catcher (Catch and/or Dodge), Blitzer (Block), Blocker (ST 4), Center (ST 5+). Which does it for most cases.
Skinks can be Lineman or Catchers according to this, and they are technically both, but funny enough, it makes no difference, it's 60k in both cases (works for Goblins too, but not Halflings or Snotlings). However, for trivia fans, they should be considered as Catchers. Werewolves are in my opinion Catchers, but could also be listed as Blitzers. Chaos Dwarf Blockers should be Linemen like Dwarf Blockers. Bombardier is Thrower. Stab & Chainsaw are Blitzers. But it's all open to interpretation, really.

However, be aware that this is not a “serious” method, but rather a neat trick to figure out costs quickly and simple. (I really shouldn't have added it to be honest, but its simplicity is somewhat fascinating. Besides I thought it may be interesting to show that even the most simplified method can still produce results.)
I even still use it in addition to the formula to check if I get a discrepancy (like the Thrower scenario) which may suggest some fine tuning.
But after all, all this isn't really an exact science. But only methods to create a frame, and maintain proportions and relations. Some are just more elaborate and sophisticated than others.

Final note:
I think both methods (well the first really) may help people who want to create “any kind” of team or player. But mind you that the original idea of this thread and it's method, which has actually very good points, seems to be to create “balanced teams and players within specific rules.” Which this “generalized” method can not guarantee or do at all.
The method in the first post is also a lot more sophisticated, and after looking at it, I would say an evolved version of the formula I'm using. Still it is also restricting and by adding this less accurate but more open “blanket” option, coaches with an inclination to madness may find help to exaggerate it.
Especially if you want to create a Secret Weapon.
Milo wrote:
How much would you value Secret Weapon at as a negative skill?

Thank god, that wasn't a distress call.


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