New Team Concept - Snakemen (1st Playtest Game Thoughts p2)

[Cracol]

I quite like the idea of this team. I think that dauntless would fit in well somewhere though to represent the fact that snakes can take down bigger prey. With that in mind I'd probably swap the cobras stab (fangs) for dauntless (the venom). That way it would lower their effectiveness against stunties and low armour teams as previously mentioned but gives them a slightly better chance against the strength teams. To be honest I don't think I'd change anything else.

[nazgob]

nice idea that one cracol.

might try to playtest this next time i get to the store.

[axiom]

The only way to work out whether prehensile tails across the board is to playtest - thanks for the comments everyone, and it certainly seems as though there are differing views on whether there are issues or not.

I am going to give things a go with some friends next week - if you have a play with the team, post your feedback!

Taking on board the comments, I suggest trying out the prehensile tail and seeing out it goes.

Playtest List v1:

0-16 Snakemen (60k) 7 3 3 7, Prehensile Tail (G ASPM)
0-2 Constrictor (110k) 5 4 2 8, Prehensile Tail, Wrestle (GS APM)
0-2 Cobroid (90k) 7 3 3 7, Prehensile Tail, Dauntless (Venom) (GS APM)
0-2 Gorgon (100k) 8 3 3 7, Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze (GA SPM)

Thanks all

[axiom]

Hi all - we gave the Snakeman list a run out last night - a single game against Wood Elves - one of the teams that potentially could run into problems with all those prehensile tails.

Rosters were:

Snakemen
1 Cobroid
1 Gorgon
2 Constrictors
7 Snakemen
2 RR

Wood Elves
1 Wardancer
1 Thrower
3 Catchers
6 Linemen
2 RR

First Half
The Snakemen kicked off to the Wood Elves who passed in their back field to a Catcher who ran and handed off to the Wardancer in the right wide zone. The Wardancer blasted a hole in the wide defence, knocking over the Gorgon before sprinting for the line. In the scrimmage the Line Elves made good use of assists to knock down a Constrictor and the Cobroid, while on the left wide zone a Wood Elf Catcher attempted to dodge a Snakeman but was felled by a lashing tail.

The defence racing back for the Snakemen made a school-boy error - going in for the tackle, the defender fell over, leaving the line open for the Wardancer to score.

Wood Elves 1 - 0 Snakemen

In the next couple of turns the Wardancer was targeted by the Cobroid (attempting and failing a stab) and the Gorgon (suceeding in hypnotising him). With the Wardancer temporarily out of the defensive line, the Snakemen slithered through the gap into the WE half, while the Constrictors made a mess of the Line Elves on the line of scrimmage, knocking down one and stunning another. The Snakemen slowly ground forward through the Elf defence, before the Elf Thrower blitzed the Snakeman ball carrier with an assist to knock the ball loose.

A Line Elf was able to pick up the ball, but the midfield was extremely congested. He fended off another stab attempt by the Cobroid, while the Constrictors continued to tear holes in the Wood Elf line, knocking down another Line Elf and knocking out a second.

Eventually the Line Elf managed to pass out of the tackle to the Wardancer into space; the Wardancer again targeted the Cobroid with a blitz to punch through the Snakeman defence before sprinting for the line, slipping the combined tackle of the Gorgon and a Snakeman to score for the second time.

Wood Elves 2 - 0 Snakemen

Second Half
In the second half my opponent decided to change tactics. Rather than try and use the speed of the Snakemen to match the fast Wood Elf game, he need to get hands on the ball and keep it with the muscle players. He also decided he needed to play a little more defensively and not rely on the Prehensile Tails to stop the Elves' breaking through (I had tried to minimise my dodge rolls by looking for assisted blocks to make room)

Again the Snakemen kicked off to the Wood Elves, and in almost a mirror image of the first half, the Woodies passed, ran and handed off to the Wardancer on the right Wide Zone. Yet again the Wardancer targeted the Wide Defence and punched the very same hole through, running for the line. This time with a deeper defence, the Snakemen surround the Wardancer, however the defending Snakeman is knocked down with snake eyes on the assisted blitz! A simple hand-off from the Wardancer to the supporting Catcher leaves a clear run in for the score.

Wood Elves 3 - 0 Snakemen

The Snakemen now had only one choice - keep it tight and hope that they could take out enough Wood Elves to go for the win - with the Line Elf still knocked out in the dugout, there was a chance with 6 turns remaining there was enough time. The Wood Elves make their first serious error as the kick off goes straight out. The touchback is given to one of the Cobroids who then blitzes and knocks out the opposing Line Elf on the scrimmage line. The Gorgon makes the hole wider by successfully hypnotising another Line Elf, before the second Gorgon knocks yet another Line Elf down. With the midfield totally open, the Snakemen pour forward in support of the Cobroid to form a lose cage. The formation slowly grinds forward over the next couple of turns; with the Snakeman team ensuring nearly every Elf player is constrained by one or more tackle zones. This is when the Elves start to suffer the frustration of failed dodge rolls, and we have a quick succession of turnovers. Finally in the 7th turn, the Cobroid pushes clear of his marker and hands off to an unmarked Snakeman who easily side-steps the last defender to score.

Wood Elves 3 - 1 Snakemen

Punditry
We finished the game on the Snakemen touchdown as with just one turn remaining there was no time to affect the result of the game.

From my Wood Elf perspective, I made the conscious decision to stand-off and try to use assisted blocks more than I would normally to break the line; something which proved effective with three almost identical touchdowns. For the Snakemen coach, at half time we discussed how the game was going and he commented that he had assumed that the prehensile tails would have been more effective than they were, and he had been playing without much in the way of covering defence. In the second half, with a much deeper defence he should have easily prevented the Wood Elf 3rd score, but for poor dice rolls.

In the remainder of the second half he hit on the approach that might have been effective from the outset; holding onto the ball with the power players (Constrictors) and preventing the opposing Elves from organising any sort of defence by strangling the movement out of them with the tackle zones. It also helped by that point that the Elves were a couple of men down.

So in summary (in as much as you can draw conclusions from a single game), the Snakemen didn't completely neutralise the Wood Elf threat, but it did require a slight change in tactics for the Elves. There is potential there for an experienced Snakeman coach to really make a nuisance of himself for faster agile teams, but the Snakemen themselves may not have the killer punch of more gritty teams. Either way, it was a fun game!

[Khar-peth]

I like it, now we need some minis.

[Ullis]

Why did the snakemen kick off to the woodies at the start of both halves? No wonder they lost.

[Akalabeth]

Playtest List v1:

0-16 Snakemen (60k) 7 3 3 7, Prehensile Tail (G ASPM)
0-2 Constrictor (110k) 5 4 2 8, Prehensile Tail, Wrestle (GS APM)
0-2 Cobroid (90k) 7 3 3 7, Prehensile Tail, Dauntless (Venom) (GS APM)
0-2 Gorgon (100k) 8 3 3 7, Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze (GA SPM)

I like the idea of a snakeman list, the snakeman has always been a pretty cool concept, due mainly to Medusa and the original Clash of the Titans. However while I like the concept, I'm not the biggest fan of the above roster. I think you've got a lot of cool ideas, but if I may I'll offer my own spin on the idea and give some reasons as to why:

Prehensile Tail+Overall stats
The biggest problem with the team is the prehensile tail. Not the skill itself mind you, but because in my opinion the skill is not really a defensive skill. It's an offensive one. It's the type of skill where you want to throw your players onto the opposition and tie them up. The problem is that all of the players have 7 armour. So if you were to throw everyone onto a team of Elves for example, they'd just knock you on your ass instead of dodging away. Why deal with the tail when you can break open 7 armour no problem?

In addition, I don't really view snakes as being that agile for the most part. Sure, they can strike fast, but when you cut off the top of the body and throw on a human torso + other parts they lose that ability. Instead they're just a guy with snake tail for locomotion. Either way, I decided to give an AG penalty on most of the players. Though a lot of people might disagree, I think would interesting in some respects to have team of low agility fastmovers. There's enough 6 3 3 8 lineman out there as it is.

Dauntless
I don't think this really belongs on the starting skillset. One could maybe argue for stab, but, if the snake guys got human upper bodies do they still have fangs or even venom for that matter? I don't think Venom cuts the mustard as a reason for Dauntless either. So I cut it. Plus enough teams start with Dauntless as it is. Why not use some skills that are more snake-like and are seldom used (in the same way the Slann use a bunch of offbeat skills)

Hypnotic Gaze
Not a skill I would have considered, but going with the Gorgon theme it's a pretty cool idea. Good stuff.

Wrestle
I like wrestle as it fits theme pretty well.

===================================

So anyway, with some of these thoughts in mind here's what I came up with:

Naga Teams
0-16 Linesnakes 50,000 6 3 2 8 - Prehensile Tail (G ASP)
0-2 Python Blocker 80,000 5 4 1 8 - Prehensile Tail, Grab (GS AP)
0-4 Constrictor 90,000 8 3 3 7 - Prehensile Tail, Wrestle (GS AP)
0-2 Gorgon 110,000 7 3 3 7 - Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze, Foul Appearance (GA SP)
Rerolls 60k

I also thought of maybe increasing either the Pythons or the Gorgons from 0-2 to 0-4. But it's okay as is too.
I don't know if mutations should be on the team, I guess if they're chaos in warhammer it makes sense, but I'm not really viewing this as a warhammer team to be honest (since I don't play the game anyway). Doesn't really matter to me either way, so people can keep mutations if it's cool.


Either way:
Linesnakes - cheap and pretty disposable, while still durable. Can tie up the other team and get knocked around without dying too quickly. Still don't have the AV9 to get in the real slugfests with bash teams.

Python Blockers - Someone was saying Wrestle to start on a ST 4 guy was maybe too much, and I probably agree. It's a bit like block. But Grab is a good alternative, and fits with the snake theme. Instead of simply constricting them, the pythons wrap around their targets and throw them around or at least, control where they go (negating sidestepping).

Constrictors - Basically the blitzers except with Wrestle instead of block. Extra move and agility at the expense of toughness, the main scorers. Gave them high movement for something different. That high move will help offset the inherent drawbacks to wrestle as well (in the same way diving tackle slann blitzers get jump up). Usually blitzers have lineman armour with more speed. So instead gave them extra speed but less armour.

Gorgons - like the snakemen's witchelf, though more manipulative. Hypnogaze to petrify opponents, and so hideous that the enemy has troubles blocking them. Prehensile tail thrown in for good measure. So more of a specialized utility piece to start off but with good agility to score as well.


Overall theme:
So to me the theme of the roster is more about controlling the pitch. On defense the team ties up the enemy, whether taking hits against bash or trying to trip up finesse teams. On offense, Grab and Hypnogaze can open up holes for the running game. While on both sides of the ball, Wrestle can be an effective tool in brining down the ball runner or again, opening up holes. That being said, they'll still have problems stopping Elves and other quick scoring teams when they're spread out on D and also they'll eventually take it on the nose in a fight against a higher armour team. So they've got some new quirks to offer, but aren't overly strong. Oh I also called them the Naga Team instead. Which is more of a Earth mythology asian thing than Warhammer, but it sounds better than Snakemen imo. In the same way that Skaven sounds better than Ratmen.

Alternatives:
1. Give linesnakes ag3 but raise to 60k?
2. Make it 0-4 Python or 0-4 Gorgon
3. Give mutation access?


As for figs, one idea are the Naga figs for Legends of the Five Rings miniatures game. Though I think they're out of print. They're decent looking. Not sure if there are any with more appropriate poses (ie ones that won't look funny after you've cut the weapons off):

http://www.coolminiornot.com/836