Idea for a Bretonnia

[Ulthuan_Express]

It's obvious, just use the Vampire team. No? Hear me out.

With the Knights of varying types as Vampires themselves and associated Yeoman/Squires/etc as Thralls.

Hypnotic Gaze becomes Heroic Gauntlet, with the Knight's chivalrous challenge causing the opponent to quite forget himself. Bloodlust becomes You Miserable Peasant, with the oh-so-noble ones enforcing an on-field punishment for some perceived misbehaviour with a good back-hander, or taking their aggression out on a member of the great unwashed sitting in the crowd.

[plasmoid]

@Rodders: Not to mention amazon and norse?

[Darkson]

It's obvious, just use the Vampire team. No? Hear me out.

I like that idea!

[burgun824]

thats also the stat for nippon, tiliea, estilea, kislev, border princes and araby

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT!?! I MUST INSIST THAT WE DEVELOP SEPARATE TEAMS FOR ALL OF THEM!

It's obvious, just use the Vampire team. No? Hear me out.

I like that idea!

+1 That's not a bad idea.

[Tourach]

Well if you compare to the warhammer world, Bretonnia is a country of its own and has an army list. That might be why people are interested in making it a team.
The human team could in fact be the bretonnians though, and i still think plasmoid concept is the most balanced one!

[spubbbba]

I think that latest team from legowarrior is the Brettonian team I hate the least. The knights could do with changing their stats a little to differentiate them from Black orcs, maybe gaining MA for the loss of dauntless?
But I don't like the names much, maybe have 1 or 2 fantasy position names but most of them should be linemen, runners or blitzers.

But I don't understand: Why did you post the rules for norse and amazon?

You had a point with Norse in LRB4, but in 5+ they are really a combination of the Norse and Were teams from 2nd edition. Norse were a pretty dull team until 5th edition and I'm suprised it took so long to get them werewolves, the unique big guy helps too.

There is very little difference between an Empire man and a Brettionian man, whilst the Norse and Amazon have much more to differentiate their physiology from the Old world humans.

[Krulfang]

Actually, there is a huge difference between the bretonnian and empire man. Oppressive dark ages conditions are very different compared to any society that has a middle class. A bretonnian peasant would be much more used to being beat for anything and education of any sort would be kept from them. The Empire is much more opportunistic, as a low-born man can at least make a name for himself through valor. The difference here is that an Empire lineman is in the game to make a name for himself. A Bretonnian peasant is in the game because his local lord made him do it!

I think this difference is very important to how the player would perform. The fend skill represents this well, as it shows their reluctance to be there.

Also, if an Empire man and a Bretonnian man are different enough to, oh, I don't know, get entirely different army books, they do seem different enough to get their own blood bowl team!

[Jimmy Fantastic]

In 2nd Ed there was a Bretonnian Minotaur, so I would like to see a mino on the team. Brets are sooo boring with knights and peasants, I think that is one of the reasons most people hate them (myself included).

[Ulthuan_Express]

In 2nd Ed there was a Bretonnian Minotaur, so I would like to see a mino on the team. Brets are sooo boring with knights and peasants, I think that is one of the reasons most people hate them (myself included).

Which completely conflicts with Bretonnian fluff of non-stop monster slaying and general Human/Bret superiority, though.

[plasmoid]

So Spubbbba,
what does it take for a nation to be team-worthy?
Is it psychology? Genetics?

I think Krulfang gives a good response.

To me, what it takes is miniatures to convert, lots of neat fluff and fans of the race ready to cross over between systems.
Cheers
Martin

[Asperon Thorn]

Any nation can be team worthy.

However, not every nation deserves their own rules. Britonnians would play like Empire Humans. Fluff wise, I don't see Knights being able to use their special prowess on a BB pitch.

That shouldn't stop you from converting Britonnian mini's to make a Britonnian themed Human team.

As for Norse and Amazons. . they already had lists. I, personally, would be opposed to adding them if they didn't already exist. Adding team lists for the sake of adding team lists is just a bad idea. I think it is far more impressive to see a good themed conversion for an existing team rather than asking for another list to make converts for.

Asperon Thorn

[plasmoid]

Hi Asperon,
I think their feudal culture and pampered excellent individuals can translate into a very playable and enjoyable team.
But I guess we should just disagree on that.

Here's my beef:
Bretonnians is the most asked for unofficial team. (Yes, I know it's also the most hated).
Do a search if you'd like, but I remember lots of threads with people asking for rules for Bretonnians, 'what happened' to Bretonnnians or similar questions.
Quite a lot more than any other concept.

And every time this happens, the asker gets shitstormed for asking, and gets told that nobody wants such a stupid team.
Then why does it keep coming up?

Then eventually, I'll step in and direct the poster to the MBBL Bret design.
Which usually means I'll be told off for starting another thread on Bretonnians.



Cheers
Martin

[spubbbba]

Actually, there is a huge difference between the bretonnian and empire man. Oppressive dark ages conditions are very different compared to any society that has a middle class. A bretonnian peasant would be much more used to being beat for anything and education of any sort would be kept from them. The Empire is much more opportunistic, as a low-born man can at least make a name for himself through valor. The difference here is that an Empire lineman is in the game to make a name for himself. A Bretonnian peasant is in the game because his local lord made him do it!

I think this difference is very important to how the player would perform. The fend skill represents this well, as it shows their reluctance to be there.

Yes there is a difference between the society of the Empire and Bretonnia, the empire has plenty of dirt poor downtrodden peasants as well but i highly doubt they play bloodbowl. Human linemen seem to suffer from the same troubles that Imperial Guardsmen get in 40K, because almost everyone else in the game is better than them they think they are wimps. When in actual fact a lineman is a very tough and fit individual.

Why would Bretonnians use peasants (who would have stats closer to flings based on the fluff) when they have plenty of knights errant? In fact entire armies worth from Storm of Chaos.

I could see Bretonnians being a variant of the human team with knights errant as catchers, knights of the realm as linemen or throwers and questing knights as blitzers with grail knights as stars.

Also, if an Empire man and a Bretonnian man are different enough to, oh, I don't know, get entirely different army books, they do seem different enough to get their own blood bowl team!

There isn't an Empire team, in fact I'd say the Empire have a far greater cliam to getting their own team than Bretonnians. They have more a much more interesting army list with things like engineers (bombers or saws) and flagellants.

The other thing to remember is that the Bloodbowl world is not the warhammer world. In the Bloodbowl world the human team represents the empire, albion, estalia, tilea and bretonnia. The Brets Bloodbowl players are the same as all the other humans with french sounding names.


@Plasmoid
I'd say a team has merit if it's interesting and brings something new to the game and more importantly has a unique Bloodbowl look on the table.

None of the Bretonnian teams I've seen have been interesting or particularly good at representing the fluff of the army book. I could see humans being split like the elves are with the standard humans becoming Pro Humans and an empire and Bretonnian team that is close to them with a few differences, just like High, Dark, Wood and Pro elves. They should keep linemen and throwers and maybe get blockers instead of catchers or less blizters.

I've yet to see a decent Bretonnian team conversion yet. They either look like an unarmed Bret army so more like a Mordheim gang. Or they are Bloodbowl players with a head swap which works as a human conversion but not a new and unique team.

[Buggrit]

+1 For liking the Vampire idea

[plasmoid]

Hi Spubbbba,
here's how I (and I'm guessing the rest of the Bret-lovers) see it:

When in actual fact a lineman is a very tough and fit individual.

Fully agreed. Just as I have a hard time seeing any professional sports team draft carrot-pickers and cow-milkers.
The Bretonnian lineman levy is from the (admittedly incompetent) all-peasant Blood Bowl clubs, that characterize such a stratified society.

Why would Bretonnians use peasants (who would have stats closer to flings based on the fluff) when they have plenty of knights errant?

Because some tasks are just too menial for nobility.
Or: For each nobleman added, there is less glory to be had for each.
But more impotantly: This is a game, and it needs balance.
Why does the khemri team use skeletons when it could be all blitz-ras?
Why isn't an amazon side just 11 blitzers?
No reason. Except balance.

The other thing to remember is that the Bloodbowl world is not the warhammer world.

Agreed. And there is absolutely no reason why this spikes-&-leather world couldn't have Bretonnians - just like it has skaven, khemrians, dwarfs and wood elfs.

In the Bloodbowl world the human team represents the empire, albion, estalia, tilea and bretonnia.

Yep - and it used to be empire, albion, estalia, tilea, bretonnia, norsca and lustria - until someone decided to add a norse and an amazon team. No reason it couldn't be done again.

I'd say a team has merit if it's interesting and brings something new to the game

I know you think it doesn't. Others do.
In fact, first response when I posted it on Cyanide was:
I like your Bretonnian team Plasmoid. Good fluff and good team design. Very balanced. More important: It's very different from the other teams. It brings something new and that's (IMO) the most important thing to look for when you create BB teams. and as a follow up: Why? They are a part of the history of BB after all. They had their own team in 1st ed, like the slann.

None of the Bretonnian teams I've seen have been interesting or particularly good at representing the fluff of the army book.

In all fairness, my first attempts some 12 years ago were based on the army books.
Knights errant, questing knights and a grail knight star.
Maaaan, I got bashed for porting an army.

The new team is based on Bretonnian society and culture, as described in the army book and in the warhammer roleplay sourcebook, that Fen was kind enough to share fluff from. That's where yeomen came from!

I'd say a team has merit if it [snip] more importantly has a unique Bloodbowl look on the table.
I've yet to see a decent Bretonnian team conversion yet. They either look like an unarmed Bret army so more like a Mordheim gang. Or they are Bloodbowl players with a head swap which works as a human conversion but not a new and unique team.

Are you seriously faulting an unofficial team for not having great BB miniatures (yet)?
Wow. I'm glad nobody demanded that when the slann team was developed.
With sculpting there's no reason they couldn't be awesome - and they wouldn't look like an army either.

I've got an OK one with 3rd ed. humans and thralls.
Not great, I know, but certainly not Mordheim or army (1st one from the top):
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/P_Bretonnia.htm

Xtapo (I believe) recently posted that he wanted to do one with individual livery shared by each blitzer and his yeoman. That sounded pretty sweet.

Or check this one out by Kotobuki.
It don't know if it will meet your standards, but it is getting very nice reviews in the thread, if you care to read it:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23069
(BTW, I don't know Kotobuki, and he wanted to play specifically Bretonnian flavoured team, because he played them in warhammer battle).

Cheers
Martin