Dryad Team

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garion
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Re: Dryad Team

Post by garion »

Darkson wrote:Just for reference: http://www.midgardbb.com/GWTeams/Treefolk.html
Thanks for that link, I just found that myself about an hour ago. I do not like it though there are too many special rules specific only to that team, also the star player list is full of new player etc...

I prefer mine personally because it fits in with the current rules with only one race specific rule.
Tourach wrote: All the players apart from the general skill players are underpriced.
That said i might have been to fast out with the OP stamp, the starting problems with this team might outwiegh any possible chance for it to be really competative.
I personally do not think they are underpriced. Because you pay for player when he is 60k and he only becomes a positional when he gets 6 spp adding 20k sop here is my break down.

A BOB os 80k with 4,4,2,9 at rookie leve
a S Dryad is worth 80k with 4,4,1,9 with Mighty blow. so that is giving him a skill and losing an agility over a BOB but the BOB has access to general skills while the S Dryad does not. Also from this point the dryad will be slower to develop as he needs another 10 spp to get his next skill and another 20 after that. It seems like a fair trade to me but I would like to hear other opinions. (Again keep the feedback coming)

A passing Dryad works out as 6,3,4,8 pass, when his value becomes 80k, A pro elf costs 70 k with stats of 6,3,4,7. So the dryad gains an AV and costs 10 k more but he will again be slower to develop.

An Agility Dryad works out as 8,2,4,7, Dodge and costs 80k which are the same stats as a wood elf catcher only 10 k less but the wood elf cacther also has catch and sprint and again the dryad is a little slower to develop.

Finally the general Dryad is 6,3,3,8 block, with a cost of 80k which is 10 k more than a human at this point with the same stats and development curve.

So on the whole it would appear Dryads would be at a development disadvantage, but what I think counters this is the versatility of thei rteam mixed high ST with good movement and agility.

In my opinion it doesnt appear to be a top tier team but I believe it could compete maybe even at the lower end of the spectrum which is fine with me. I would rather be there than create an all destroying team.

Keep the feedback coming the more I get the more I can think about them and change accordingly. Great stuff guys :)

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by garion »

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Darkson wrote:Just for reference: http://www.midgardbb.com/GWTeams/Treefolk.html
Yeah that team has bene part of the MBBL2 for many years now. We've had 19 players play the team so far in the league with a combined record of 84 wins, 72 losses and 14 ties. So I'd be very cautious making a team that is better looking than the one used in the MBBL2 because in my opinion it would definitely be too good.

Tom

Thanks for those stats Tom. That is quite interesting that they have managed to get the team off the ground to a certain extent. I would love to give my team a try in a league sometime to see how it fairs. I'm not sure how much better my team is though their team has 2 big guys and my team does not though to be honest they are very very different in the way they would work so it is a little like chalk and cheese trying to compare. But I'd love to see similar stats for this team after that many games. It would make my year :)

Tom

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by GalakStarscraper »

garion wrote:
Darkson wrote:Just for reference: http://www.midgardbb.com/GWTeams/Treefolk.html
Thanks for that link, I just found that myself about an hour ago. I do not like it though there are too many special rules specific only to that team, also the star player list is full of new player etc...
That is the MBBL2 format ... let me translate that to CRP for you because its really easy to do so:

Players:

0-16 Dryad 80,000 5/3/3/7 Skills: Aspect GS/AP
0-2 Treeman 110,000 2/6/1/10 Loner, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Stand Firm, Strong Arm, Throw TeamMate, Take Root S/GAP

Rerolls: 70,000

New Skills:
Aspect: Each Dryad chooses from one of the following three aspects at the start of each game.
Birch: +2 MA, Juggernaut, Frenzy
Oak: +1 ST, +2 AV, -1 MA, -1 AG
Willow: +1 MA, +1 AV, Dauntless, Side Step

Star Players: Use your list

There you go that is the CRP version of the Dryad roster that the MBBL2 has used for years. I'm not saying AT ALL that you should use it ... just showing you that this roster has generated around a 53% win record ... and use that as a thought inducer on your team.

Tom

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by GalakStarscraper »

garion wrote:I'm not sure how much better my team is though their team has 2 big guys and my team does not though to be honest they are very very different in the way they would work
Understood. I'd be interested to see how the team does without the Treemen. The MBBL2 is an incredibly bash heavy league but in another league ... I'd say the Treeman are not critical.

And I wasn't trying to derail the thread ... just wanted to add this into the mix since they had 150+ games and thought you could use it as a baseline for concepts.

Tom

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by garion »

A 53% win ratio is exactly what I would be looking for. I will certainly keep that in mind. Now I just need to persuade some people to let me try my list out in their league. This will not be easy.

But what do you think about my team on the whole Galak? What about its strengths weaknesses etc.. is there anything you think is screaming out to be changed?

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by GalakStarscraper »

garion wrote:But what do you think about my team on the whole Galak? What about its strengths weaknesses etc.. is there anything you think is screaming out to be changed?
My biggest problem is that it breaks my personal cardinal rule of new team design (while this is old and needs badly updated ... its still mostly accurate http://www.midgardbb.com/NewBBTeamBuildingGuide.html ).

Namely the team design rule begin broke here is:
AG and ST at 4+:
a) A team with ST 4+ player without negatraits may not have any AG 4+ players and vice versa.
b) Teams with 3 or more ST 5 players on the roster may have a maximum of 4 players with ST<5 and ST+AG=6 AND no players with ST<5 and ST+AG=7.
c) No player's ST+AG should exceed 7.
d) Player types with 8+ allowed players are limited to a maximum ST of 3.
Note that the Vampires break this team design rule and in order to balance them out we had to give them one of the worst negative skills ever devised for Blood Bowl.

Your design is breaking part b and d of the above.

Tom

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by garion »

I did consider that (although was unaware of the link, thanks again for that :)). My feeling on the matter of Ag4 and ST4 on the same team was that the advantage was somewhat negated by the fact that none of the players can take general skills on anything but a double, other than the general type Dryad. I'm not sure if that balances it out enough, because as you say the vamps got severely handicapped by their negatrait.

Just guessing but this roster looks to me like it could struggle for the first 2 games then be very effective in the mid tv range and possibly struggle again at a high TV which I wouldnt mind. I need to do some testing i think.

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by Darkson »

garion wrote:A 53% win ratio is exactly what I would be looking for.
That's to high tbh - that's top of tier 1 territory.
In my opinion you should be looking at the bottom of tier 1 (45% win), if not tier 2 (vampire, Underworld), then if necessary, buff upwards.
It's easier to buff a team than nerf one.


[As a side note, because I honestly can't remember either way, did the BBRC win% tiers count a tie as a half-win or not?]

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by garion »

Darkson wrote:
garion wrote:A 53% win ratio is exactly what I would be looking for.
That's to high tbh - that's top of tier 1 territory.
In my opinion you should be looking at the bottom of tier 1 (45% win), if not tier 2 (vampire, Underworld), then if necessary, buff upwards.
It's easier to buff a team than nerf one.

I didn't realise that is T1 territory, I guess I didn't think that one through. But you are right I would far prefer to start off as a weaker team and work up. If I could get them slightly better than vamps but worse than pro elves I would be very happy.

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by Ullis »

The MBBL2 team certainly looks very similar. The difference to Garion's team is that the players are locked into their forms.

The team presented here also starts without any skills whatsoever. Developing a reliably passing game will take quite a bit of time. The passing dryads get Pass I guess as a first skill but the catchers benefit most from Dodge. And no Sure Hands on the passer will eat rerolls surely as well as no Catch on the catchers.

I don't really see the team as overpowered. At least at start they will struggle.

(and pro elves are awesome so you should definitely aim way below them!)

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by garion »

I agree, I think they could really struggle because of their restrictions in skill selection. However the mix of having fast agile players mixed in with slow st4 players could make them a real handful. I think people are right though RR should drop to 70k, because the team will be a RR heavy team I think and 70k/140k is enough to make getting more RR a big TV hit and something that you need to save up for.

What do you think about adding 1 tree to the line up as well or should i just test it as it is for the time being? Bearing in mid the other dryad team has 2 trees.

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by Wosret »

Intersting team proposition.

You could stop the team from derailing in one direction. by imposing a limit on the amount of each form you can have in the team.
Like a two to one ratio, on the S,P and A form. General form is like 0-16 in normal team
So for example if u wanted to have 6 Passing forms you have to have no more than 3 each of Strength and Agilty form, if 8 then 4 each of the other forms.

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by garion »

I think this team would generally develop like this -

4 St
4 G
1 P
2 AG

but personally I would like their to be no restrictions. I think that is where the fun of this team would be, so if you are in a really bash heavy league you could technically go for - 10 St 1 AG if you wanted too. Or alternately go for 4 P, 3G and 4 A types for a very heavy passing game.

Obviously this would take some serious testing to work out it overloading on ST players and having one ag player would be balanced or not. But it would be interesting to see how it panned out.

Also I have changed the RR to 70k as suggested. I do think this works out better.

It means you could start out with a rosters like -

11 Dryads
1 Apoth
4 RR
with 10 k left

or

13 Dryads
3 RR
with 10 k left over

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by Ullis »

First few games would be with an all human lineman roster. Compare that to a chaos team and the conventional wisdom that Chaos are a hard team to start with.

Skilling them won't be easy. Getting an early AG form would help a lot but that would just give you players that hog all the SPP's.

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Re: Dryad Team

Post by hancock.tom »

I think your team would be weak at first but after a few games (say when 6 or 7 of your players had taken their upgraded forms) it would be extremely good, and possibly overpowered. The "altered forms" are not overpowered on their own, but giving a coach access to all of them on one team is super good. No one will ever take your passer. They will either just run the ball or just take the MA8 AG4 catcher and wait for an AG boost, then use that guy as the passer. STR4 Mighty Blow is like a saurus but better, and the MA8 AG4 piece is a better more durable ball carrier than a skink (no stunty).

So what would I change? Probably make your altered forms limited to 2 of each for the team, except for the general track. You would still have 4 ag4 pieces, 2 with block, and 2 with str4. At that point the team would play a lot like a necromantic with much faster linemen and much less skill access. It would play like a starting chaos team at 1000 TV, like a necro team at mid level TV, and at high TV I think it would begin to play like high TV humans.

That change would weaken the team pretty significantly, which would allow you to drop the reroll cost and improve their play out of the box.

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