Savage Orcs

[narg]

In my league we use the Savage Orcs roster, which I guess was taken from somewhere on internet. That's what it looks like:

Lineman 6 3 3 7 Frenzy, Invulnerable G APS 50000 0-12
Black Savage 5 4 2 7 Frenzy, Invulnerable GS AP 90000 0-4
Blitzer 7 3 3 7 Block, Frenzy, Horns, Invulnerable GS AP 100000 0-4
Minotaur 5 5 2 8 Frenzy, Horns, Loner, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Wild Animal SM GAP 150000 0-1

Did anyone have any experience with it?

I personally find it overpowered, having played a few games against them. The blitzer in particular is just too good in my opinion, with a high blitzing range, strength four on a blitz, and good agility. Invulnerable also seems overpowered (armor rolls can never be modified, including for fouling assists), and on top of that it seems to come for free.

I'm looking for ways to modify it while keeping the spirit of the team, so I was thinking about decreasing the blitzers' agility to 2 for example. Any thoughts?

[Urb]

My first impression, other than the mino undercosted.

Invunerable is ok for this team as it only effects MB. Being TT the POMB monsters are not as common so invunerable isn't as great. In a long league invunerable would elimate any killer teams. One skill that nullifies 2 in one shot. That I would consider unbalanced.

Cost of rr's would have to be high. 70,000.. still would seem a bit unbalanced.

[legowarrior]

Some thought I have.

I like the idea of Frenzy on everyone, that is cool, and is exactly what I would have done.
I dislike the idea of everyone having Black Orcs on the team. Black Orcs are never savages, but are always the most discipled players and units on the field for the orcs.
Likewise, Orcs are tough and have war paint, so a low armor of 7 seems pitiful. Why would hulking orcs be as easy to injure as amazons? The orc is above all else tough.


Personally, I would want the Savage orcs to be as similar as normal orcs as Norse and Amazons are to humans.
For Line Orcs I see this as a better fit - 5/3/3/8 Frenzy for 60K. They have the same movement as normal orcs, but don't wear anywhere near as armor. They are more expansive to hire because fewer Savage orcs want to play Blood Bowl.

As to the other positions -
Blitzer - 6/3/3/8 Frenzy, Block for 90K
Crazies - 6/3/3/7 Frenzy, Dauntless, Juggernaut, 90K
No big guys - if you aren't a savage orc, you're just another meal.

[Corvidius]

Take a normal Orc roster, knock 1 off everyones Av and give everyone Thick Skull to represent the Warpaint.

[Dzerards]

My first impression, other than the mino undercosted.

Why, how much does a Mino usually cost?

RR = 70K I should think. Blitzers need to lose Horns and go to 90K. I doubt this team has ever been play tested. I don't think it's need personally.

[mattgslater]

Better?
0-4 Blitzers: 6/3/3/8 Dauntless, Frenzy, Jump Up, Tattoos (Foul Appearance) GS 110k
0-4 Blockers: 5/3/3/9 Block, Frenzy, Tattoos GS 90k
0-2 Runners: 6/3/3/8 Frenzy, Sure Hands, Tattoos GP 90k
0-4 Forest Goblins: 6/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty A 40k
0-16 Linemen: 5/3/3/8 Frenzy, Tattoos G 50k
TRR: 60k

[Mango]

I dislike the idea of everyone having Black Orcs on the team. Black Orcs are never savages, but are always the most discipled players and units on the field for the orcs.

I agree with this although I would use the same statline as BO and call them "Brutes" and only 0-2. There is always going to be a bigger orc even with savages and the 0-2 means that they rely on lineorcs

Likewise, Orcs are tough and have war paint, so a low armor of 7 seems pitiful. Why would hulking orcs be as easy to injure as amazons? The orc is above all else tough.

Agreed, AV 8 seems reasonable

No big guys - if you aren't a savage orc, you're just another meal.

Definately not a mino but maybe a troll, or maybe a 'wild boar' (possible deathroller/loon maybe) or even a snotling pumpwagon as I think the old WFB savage orcs used to hang with the snotlings a fair bit. Maybe even have snotlings replace the goblins?

[Mango]

Im not sure on pricing but I would consider something like this

0-4 Blitzers: 6/3/3/8 Dauntless, Frenzy
0-2 Big Uns: 5/4/3/9 Frenzy
0-2 Yoofs/Runts: 6/3/3/7 Sure Hands
0-16 Linemen: 5/3/3/8 Frenzy
0-1 Something, wild boar/swamp troll/pumpwagon
0-2 Snotlings? Maybe


The yoofs/runts are the tribes young or weak who arnt savage enough to have frenzy (you've never been frenzy in your life) I dont think STR 2 suits them but maybe AV7 better represents their 'softness' compared to a normal orc.

The question really is to try and get a skill that represents the magical tattoos without being over powered, i think FA is waay too strong, here are some other thoughts

Pro - maybe too powerful
Juggernaught - i think the norse blitzers have this so a bit 'samey'
Sprint - tatts used to represent magical protection but maybe sprint fits in with the frenzyness? not too overpowered either
Thick Skull - someone mentioned this and its a good possibility without being overpowered.

Overall I think thick skull fits the bill the best, a nice additional skill without being overpowered

So how about

0-4 Blitzers: 6/3/3/8 Dauntless, Frenzy, TS
0-2 Big Uns: 5/4/3/9 Frenzy, TS
0-2 Yoofs/Runts: 6/3/3/7 Sure Hands
0-16 Linemen: 5/3/3/8 Frenzy, TS
0-1 Something, wild boar/swamp troll/pumpwagon
0-2/4 Snotlings? Maybe

[legowarrior]

I like Mango's idea. My only concern is that 4 guys with Dauntless means that if no one on the opposing team has more then strength 3, it's kind of a waste if we paid full price for it. How about Dauntless and Sprint?

Anyway, ignoring my suggestion because it isn't full thought out here is what I think pricing will look like.

0-4 Blitzers 6/3/3/8 Frenzy, Dauntless, 90-100K (If there where only two Blitzers, I'd say 100K, but since there are 4 of them, and the chance of the skill being not usable, I'd reduce it to 90K

0-2 Big Uns 5/4/3/9 Frenzy - 130K.
0-2 Runts 6/3/3/7 Sure Hands - 40-50K (very weak for a positional)
0-16 Linesmen - 5/3/3/8 Frenzy, 60K
0-2 Snotlings - 20K
0-1 What?????


I would make a change to the runts so that they are at least as expensive as the Linesmen.

[dode74]

Well according to the pricing guide by Galak here the prices should be:

Blitzers - 90k
Big Uns - 110k (80k base blocker type + 10k (MA5) + 20k (AG3) +20k (Frenzy) = 130k, so it's 100k + 30/2 rounded down to nearest 10 = 110k)
Runts - 50k
Linemen - 60k
Snotlings - 20k

As for the big guy, maybe something akin to a snow troll (but greener)?
5/5/1/8 Loner, Wild Animal, Claw, Frenzy, TTM, Always Hungry - 150k

So, decent start roster would be
4 Blitzers 360k
2 Big Uns 220k
1 Runt 50k
4 Linemen 240k
I'd suggest RRs at 60k to allow for 2 to start with.

[legowarrior]

Still, not a fan of 4 dauntless players. Give them Block.

[dode74]

I'd agree. You could give the Runts dauntless and up their price to 70k, solving their being cheaper than the linemen. Starting to become an expensive roster though, and I'm beginning to question the utility of linemen with frenzy - that's quite a weakness with no other skills.

[narg]

At first my question was more about how to tweak the original Savage Orcs roster as we already use it and we already have a few league teams using that roster, but I personally thought it was too powerful so I was looking for ways to change it at the margin so that existing Savage Orcs teams could be converted to the new roster without too much trouble, but what you're coming up with is now completely different.

Even though it doesn't help for my league, the latest proposed roster is interesting but I've got a few comments:
- Being a Norse player I'd say that you must be careful not to create a team that's similar and maybe better than norse; all the frenzy, the ST4 guys and the dauntless are a bit too similar. Sure they have no block and AV8 instead of AV7 but still.
- I liked the idea of giving them all Thick Skull to represent the war paint.
- I think that if there was a minotaur in the roster it had less to do with "orc identity" and more to do with the fact that the minotaur has frenzy; having a whole team with frenzy seems to have been the starting point to create the savage orcs roster, and something that sets them apart from all other rosters. So for example if you remove frenzy from the linemen they'd start looking more like (stronger) Norse.

[GalakStarscraper]

Having played a Savage Orc team before in the MBBL2 ... you all are seriously underestimating the downside of your entire team having Frenzy. The number of blocks you have to pass up on unless you want to risk it seriously effects your teams. Or simple things you take for granted, like your ball carrier being able to blitz and push his attacker away to then run in for an easy score ... this team cannot do that. I'm speaking not from theoryville ... but from having actually played the team for a season.

http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL2/?show=RaceStats

In the MBBL2, Savage Orc teams have played a total of 142 games. Overall record was 74 wins - 66 losses - 2 ties for a 52.82% win rate. Definitely not something that screams overpowered.

I never found this team to have any of the problems that needed adjusting being discussed on this thread.

I do see one thing based on where CRP went that I definitely would change ... I would not allow the Minotaur to have access to Mutations either on normal or doubles rolls as this is not a team infected by Chaos. The Mutation access was a hold over from 3rd edition rules for Minotaurs when you copied the team and in the MBBL2 most of the Physical skills were traits ... a small handful were normal ... so translated to CRP that would be a doubles roll to get a Mutation if you directly translated it. But me ... I remove access to Mutations completely from the Minotaur.

And to answer the original question ... yes Invunerable was free for pricing when I re-designed the team to put it in the MBBL2 because the downside of having Frenzy on every single piece is a definite negative to the team.

Keep in mind that Invunerable does not stop Mighty Blow from working on the Injury roll. And it doesn't stop Piling On from working against the players at all.

Tom

The MBBL2 league lasted for many years and tested out a lot of different wild rosters ... I guess many of the newer players never saw. Here were all the rosters that were legal in the MBBL2 ... note the league used LRB 3.0 rules so some of the skills and prices may look out of date especially on Big Guys.

http://www.midgardbb.com/BloodBowlTeams.html

We also had great rules for on-pitch spellcasters that I greatly enjoyed for the entire time I played in the league ... never had a team without a spellcaster.

http://www.midgardbb.com/Variants/Spellcasters.html

[mattgslater]

Ah-ha!
0-1 River Troll 5/5/1/8 Always Hungry, Foul Appearance, Loner, Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Throw Teammate S 120k
0-2 Big 'Un 5/4/2/8 Frenzy, Tattoos GS 110k
0-4 Berserker 6/3/3/8 Block, Frenzy, Tattoos GS 90k
0-2 Runner 5/3/3/8 Sure Hands, Tattoos GP 70k
0-16 Lineman 5/3/3/8 Frenzy, Tattoos G 60k
0-4 Forest Goblin 6/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff A 40k
TRR: 60k
Tattoos = Foul Appearance

You could field as little as 4x Frenzy, but you'd be losing out on 4x Foul App/Tattoos and taking a Really Stupid player. More likely, you'd run about 7-8x, with 10-11x FA/Tats.