Classic rosters.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:32 pm

Another thread has given me an idea.
How about developing some 'classic' rosters for 2k1 rules based around the 2e teams and star players?
I'm thinking along the lines of, to start with, a Reikland Reavers roster containing Griff, Zug, Jacob von Aldorf, Gregor Meissen, Ritter von Baum and Ziggi Abschuss; and a Gouged Eye roster containing Varag, Hak Demoncutter, Ulfrick Skullhack, Harg Vainkill and Krug Painspear. Then work through the Chaos-All Stars, Darkside Cowboys, Evil Gits etc.
Bear in mind that these rosters would be supposed to represent 'historical' teams at their peak prior to the NAF collapse, no development, no deaths etc; just star-heavy rosters posted on the net that people could use for one-off fun games.
It'd return some of the old 'forgotten' Stars to the limelight/playing field, maybe introduce them to newer generation players etc. I know Galak has a formula for 2e to current, and maybe JohnnyP, Galak, Anthony etc could find some space to host the rosters (I'd be happy to put them up on Wodell as well).
What do you all think? A worthwhile enterprise? I'm sure we could thrash something out between us and maybe contribute valuable to the BB community worldwide. A talkbloodbowl collaboration? Thoughts?

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:38 pm

i have the 2ED STAR BOOK with the 8 best teams of NAF if you want some help.

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:53 pm

I have been thinking of doing the same thing, those teams would be a ton of fun to play in one off matches. Hmm me smells a CJ article in the making...

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:46 pm

I have space to host the teams ... I agree with Longshot that the teams you want to convert are the 8 Famous teams in the 2E Star Players book.

These teams were:
Reikland Reavers (Human)
Gouged Eye (Orc)
Elfheim Eagles (High/Wood Elf)
Chaos All-Stars (Chaos)
Dwarf Giants (Dwarf)
Darkside Cowboys (Dark Elf)
Underworld Creepers (Skaven/Goblin)
Champions of Death (Undead)

The problem with this project is the conversion of the non-Star players ... I'll give you an example:

Reikland Reavers roster:
Griff Oberwald, Zug, Jacob von Altdorf, Gregor Meissen, Ritter von Baum, Ziggi Abschuss ... these 6 were stars and I already have BB2k1 conversion for them.

Then you get the Veteran players on the team. Okay Veteran status required 15 SPPs .. so that would translate close enough to the BB2k1 requirement of 16 SPPs for level 2.
The teams had 10 Veteran players ... 2 Kickers, 3 Lineman, 2 Blockers, 1 Catcher, 1 Blitzer, 1 Thrower. They have names but thats it since in 2E only Star Players had SPECIAL skills ... Veterans just got a free personal reroll ... but we can ignore that since the SPP requirement guide us ... so you have 10 players that you need to give skills to based on personal opinion on what would make the team famous.

On the worst to translate will be the Chaos All-Stars since they used Human Players in 2E instead of Beastmen ... My thought would be to create it with Beastmen and ally in the really wierd played players .... same for the Underworld Creepers ... use the old Gold 4th allies rules of no rerolls for allies would be about right as both these teams had issues with infighting.

Its a fun project .... lets see what we can come up with.

Galak

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:31 pm

Well let's work on one team at a time, might as well start with the Reavers. I don't have the 2e books so can someone fill me in on what positions the stars fill? I guess Griff is a Blitzer, Zug is a "Blocker" (I guess this means he is a Lineman), Gregor Meissan is a Catcher right? The rest I'm not sure of.

To me Humans are an all rounder team with more of a passing game with a running option so I'll start off by suggesting some stats for the other players (just off the top of my head):

Thrower: (Sure Hands, Pass) Accurate, Block
Catcher: (Catch, Dodge) Block, Sidestep
"Blockers" these are just 'tough' Linemen so how about Block, Dauntless
Linemen: Could be aything. I say give them all Block then one with Dirty Player, one with Tackle, one with... err Guard?
Kickers... well there are no kickers so let's pretend they are Linemen with Block and Kick (although having two kickers seems like a waste).

Anyways maybe that'll get the ball rolling.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:49 pm

I'm going to do my take on the easiest famous team really quick here ... I'll add in SPPs and such later .... here are the rules that I followed ... all players must be creatable using BB2k1 rules and players ... the only fudge allowed is each player can be given 1 "Magic Helmet" to increase his AV.

The Champions of Death:

1) Ramtut the Third - Mummy - 4/6/1/10 Block, Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Sprint, MHelmet, +1 MA, +1 ST
2) Throttlegrim the Elder - Mummy - 3/5/1/9 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Block, Tackle
3) Brittle Snaparm - Skeleton - 5/3/3/7 Pass, Accurate, Regeneration, +1 AG
4) Quietus Hades - Skeleton - 5/3/3/7 Pass, Sure Hands, Regeneration, +1 AG
5) Rigor Mortis - Skeleton - 6/2/4/7 Catch, Dodge, Regeneration, +2 AG, +1 MA, Aging -1 ST
6) Cain - Skeleton - 6/2/4/7 Catch, Sure Hands, Regeneration, +2 AG, +1 MA, Aging -1 ST
7) Ivan the Revived - Skeleton - 5/3/3/8 Block, Tackle, Regeneration, +1 AG, MHelmet

Toxix - Skeleton - 5/3/3/8 - Block, Dirty Player, Regeneration, +1 AG, MHelmet
9) Carcass Bloodletter - Skeleton - 5/4/3/8 Strip Ball, Regeneration, +1 ST, +1 AG, MHelmet
10) Harry Obitu - Skeleton - 5/4/3/8 Strip Ball, Regeneration, +1 ST, +1 AG, MHelmet
11) Styff Simeon - Skeleton - 5/3/3/8 Block, Regeneration, +1 AG, MHelmet
12) Splinter Marrowblade - Skeleton - 5/3/3/8 Block, Regeneration, +1 AG, MHelmet

Rerolls: 3
Fan Factor: 19
Cheerleaders: 8
Ass. Coaches: 0

[ This Message was edited by: GalakStarscraper on 2002-02-07 15:38 ]

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 8:00 pm

i dont know about 15spp for veteran players coz it wasnt the same system (they couldn't became stars).
In fact there may be 51spp but we never really know.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 8:05 pm

Page 62, BB 2nd Ed. Companion ... in order to become an Experienced Player you needed 5 Training Points ... to become a Veteran you needed 15 Training Points.

Training Points = 3 for a TD, 2 for killing opponent, 1 for completion, etc. ...

Looks close enough to Star Player Points for my taste when determining conversion.

Galak

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 2:19 pm

Interesting Galak, and a good starting point.
I'm not keen on giving doubles rolls for increases to experienced linemen, so maybe think about the Guard? I know it'd be correct to factor doubles into the skill increases, but in this case you could argue that to a certain extent it's already been offset by the increased AG, ST etc.
It'd keep things simpler, and save some discussion about who should have which skill.
So how about experienced Skeletons lineman just coming with the increased ST, AG, AV and Block?
The fact that the Champions of Death could 'recover' quicker than normal skeletons makes a case for dropping the regen roll to a 3+ from the standard 4+.

I guess the FF is Fame 13 + Chant 1 + Hooligans 1 + Loyalty 4 =19? Fine and nice and simple.
Cheerleaders is straightfoward.
Why the drop in re-rolls from 5 to 3?
And is there a case for adding 4 Rookie skeletons to bulk out the roster? In 2e you could keep recycling them and bringing recovered ones back onto the field each turn, obviously this doesn't factor in today's game.
Just some thoughts to chew over.

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 2:19 pm

This is a fantastic idea, sort of like the EA Sports historic teams which were great to play with.

let me know when it is up I will take note straight away.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 3:33 pm

I'm not keen on giving doubles rolls for increases to experienced linemen, so maybe think about the Guard? I know it'd be correct to factor doubles into the skill increases, but in this case you could argue that to a certain extent it's already been offset by the increased AG, ST etc.
It'd keep things simpler, and save some discussion about who should have which skill.
So how about experienced Skeletons lineman just coming with the increased ST, AG, AV and Block? 

To me there are two ways to translate the 2E CoD Lineman skeletons to BB2k1:
5/3/3/8 Block OR 5/4/3/8
So I thought I would keep to the simple 5/3/3/8 Block for everyone, but throw in two 5/4/3/8 players for flavour ... these are the ROOKIE skeletons ... Experienced skeletons then should have one extra skill ... on the 5/4/3/8 player get rid of Guard and give him Strip Ball instead.

The fact that the Champions of Death could 'recover' quicker than normal skeletons makes a case for dropping the regen roll to a 3+ from the standard 4+. 

Agreed ... I was trying to avoid special team rules, but in this case I would agree with you.

I guess the FF is Fame 13 + Chant 1 + Hooligans 1 + Loyalty 4 =19? Fine and nice and simple. 

Correct

Cheerleaders is straightfoward.

Agreed

Why the drop in re-rolls from 5 to 3? 

In 2E, re-rolls where the # allowed per a GAME ...not per a half ... so I divided by 2 and rounded up.

And is there a case for adding 4 Rookie skeletons to bulk out the roster? In 2e you could keep recycling them and bringing recovered ones back onto the field each turn, obviously this doesn't factor in today's game. 

I think dropping the Regen to 3+ or if you really want 2+ would be a better way of handling this then throwing in extra rookie skeletons.

Galak

[ This Message was edited by: GalakStarscraper on 2002-02-07 15:34 ]

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 3:56 pm

i propose that any of us take one team and try to put it n 3rd Ed...which one do you want?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 4:27 pm

Longshot ... only a few of us have the necessary 2E books to do this project.

You, me, and Deathwing are all that I know of so far. So its not so much as 1 person taking one of the 8 teams as anyone posting the roster and then reaching agreement as to the final roster to be posted to my web and Deathwing's sites .. (mine should be up and running tomorrow or so they promise).

I'd say grab any team you want and convert it to BB2k1. We can throw in our two cents from there.

Galak

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 4:45 pm

Longshot: I'd prefer to keep each team under open discussion, the more ideas are bounced around the better. I'll put up a team for discussion when we've got some kind of agreement with the Champions of Death.

Galak:
To me there are two ways to translate the 2E CoD Lineman skeletons to BB2k1:
5/3/3/8 Block OR 5/4/3/8
So I thought I would keep to the simple 5/3/3/8 Block for everyone, but throw in two 5/4/3/8 players for flavour ... these are the ROOKIE skeletons ...
Experienced skeletons then should have one extra skill ... on the 5/4/3/8 player get rid of Guard and give him Strip Ball instead
Personally I'd like to lose a little flavour in favour of consistancy. IMO the flavour is provided by the 'Catcher' and 'Thrower' slots. So what about 5/4/3/8 Rookies and 5/4/3/8 Block or Strip Ball experienced? I guess it's just a judgement call, what do others think?

And is there a case for adding 4 Rookie skeletons to bulk out the roster? In 2e you could keep recycling them and bringing recovered ones back onto the field each turn, obviously this doesn't factor in today's game.

I think dropping the Regen to 3+ or if you really want 2+ would be a better way of handling this then throwing in extra rookie skeletons.

Agreed. I'm happy with 2+, I just feel that this team should be able to field a full 11 or close to it at each KO, it's fully within the recycling/regen. theme. Even at 3+ there's a danger of being seriously out-numbered with a few bad regen rolls with only 12 on the Roster. Plus of course the 2+ will have absolutely no long term effect, there IS no long term. Didn't Jervis say in WD182 that 2+ regen. is fine for 1 off games, and it was changed to 4+ because of the effect on League play? I rest my case there!

How about costs and SPPs? Minimum SPP's required for each upgrade? i.e. Rookies 0, Exp. 6, Vet. 16 etc. I can't see that this is really important as long as whatever criteria is used is applied to all 8 teams across the board.
How about costs? Apply the costing formula to each player? If we go that route then I'd like to see any existing current Star Players that may 'break' the formula (Griff?)
recosted using the formula.

This is a lot of fun!

Anbody else got any thoughts?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:30 pm

Now that my site is back up ... I'll put together an html for this team and get it up tonight as an example.

As for consistency ... if that is important than 5/3/3/8 Block skeletons should be the baseline. The ST 4 of 2E can be translated to ST 4 or Block ... personally I think Block is the better choice ... then add a skill for the experienced skeletons ...

I also fully agree with the 2+ Regeneration for the team and leave it at 12 players.

As for costing ... I don't see any reason not to just assign the normal player cost and then the number of SPPs required to have the stats ... so a "Rookie" skeleton would have 16 to 30 SPPs in order to have +1 AG and Block ... I really think it would be a mistake to pull out the cost formula for the teams ... just develop them like they were a team that I developed in BB2k1 from a bunch of rookies that will IMO give you the best result.

Putting the roster in HTML on its own page would allow anyone who plays online or via PBeM to use the team in those formats easily and if you want to use the rules for real minis then you could just print the single page, so I think this will work best.

Galak