Str 3 Human Catcher?

[Kort]

[quote="burgun824"]
There's that "ST2 catchers somehow improve the game play" argument again.

I really want to understand. If someone could please tell me (because I'm obviously too stupid to get it) how a ST2 human/wood elf catcher make the game that much more balanced and better overall?/quote]
The two teams are totally different to be honest.

Wood Elves (and all Elves teams) do not have extremely specialized positional players. With universal AG4 and access to AG skills, linemen can become real stars after a few skills. Therefore, I do not think Wood Elves intrinsically need Catchers. Tthey do not really suffer from them being ST2, since they already start with 2 extremely fast and well-developed Wardancers who can play the ball if necessary.

On the other hand, Humans have extremely specialized players, so they suffer a lot from having a gimped access to AG skills. While I understand the rationale for the original design of the Catcher, experience has shown that efficient teams must be able to field players both in defense and in offense, and offensive specialists (with the exception of one-turners) are a liability.

Human Catchers are useful players since they open otherwise unavailable options in offense, but I think it was a mistake to include them in a supposedly vanilla roster. I think having Runner-like (i.e., 7337 Dodge Catch for 80k) instead would make much more sense (while making them more bland, unfortunately). The Catcher should be given to another, more unusual team, such as Amazons or even Undead/Necromantic for instance (Regeneration would help a fragile 8237 player to survive longer).

[garion]

If humans had st3 catchers you would have no linemen on the pitch. That is wrong and should never happen.

[dode74]

I don't think that humans should have ST3 catchers either, but "no linemen" is not a good argument - Orcs can (and do) exactly that.

Why is AV8 such a big issue? Give them dauntless as an early skill and you have a survivable and useful piece.

[Chris]

I think people do that (dauntless), and I think it makes little difference. From finding the Naf stats they really are worse than i had thought after using them.

Humans in tournies under crp
http://naf.doubleskulls.net/lrb6.html
18th overall, played 1618 W%.350 D%.189 L%.461 (19th just on loses)

Is their a compilation for leagues?

I agree incidentally on liking the move 8/str 2 challenge, but its just too much of a challege considering the other catchers get ag4 which makes a massive difference. I would probably prefer a skink over a human catcher! Ag 4 though seems completely out.

I do incidentally like the idea of an amazon str 2 catcher, probably with dodge and diving catch.

[dode74]

Why is AG4 completely out? I'd like to see 0-2 8247 Dodge Catch 100k (perhaps 90k?) GA/SP tested.

In FOL (matchmaking open league) humans do ok. Over four seasons they are at 48.81 win% (1052/442/1114 WDL - well inside the bracket) and mid-table on Elo at just under a neutral 1300 with 1298 points. They are average in that environment. Full stats can be found in the spreadsheet available on our forum if anyone wants them.

[burgun824]

Wood Elves (and all Elves teams) do not have extremely specialized positional players. With universal AG4 and access to AG skills, linemen can become real stars after a few skills. Therefore, I do not think Wood Elves intrinsically need Catchers. They do not really suffer from them being ST2, since they already start with 2 extremely fast and well-developed Wardancers who can play the ball if necessary.

I agree with all of this. However, it still doesn't change the fact that a WE catcher should intuitively be ST3.

On the other hand, Humans have extremely specialized players, so they suffer a lot from having a gimped access to AG skills. While I understand the rationale for the original design of the Catcher, experience has shown that efficient teams must be able to field players both in defense and in offense, and offensive specialists (with the exception of one-turners) are a liability.

1- Humans suffer from having 4 positional slots that is their only A access without a double. And all 4 of those positions get slaughtered because they have ST2 AV7. I think that's what you meant by "gimped access" and if it is I agree.

2- I do not understand the rationale for the original design. No human should be MA8 ST2 unless they have a stat increase and a -ST injury. At which point they should be retired because ST2 humans would be relegated to the sideline as cheerleaders.

If humans had st3 catchers you would have no linemen on the pitch. That is wrong and should never happen.

I do understand your point but a 0-2 limit would handle this easily enough. I would also then be the same basic formula that other teams use.

Why is AG4 completely out?

Because much like MA8 and ST2, humans should only obtain AG4 on a stat increase.

[dode74]

Because much like MA8 and ST2, humans should only obtain AG4 on a stat increase.

On what basis do you say that? Why do you hold that opinion? Is it for fluff, or for gameplay reasons, and if for gameplay reasons then what are they? If they are for fluff reasons then I reserve the right to dismiss them out of hand, because for me gameplay >>> fluff. Sorry

[Chris]

I see your arguement a lot and I don't I have to say agree with it.

BB players are not 'normal' sportsmen they are nutters. It is no doubt all about building up muscle at every opportunity. I would envisage the WWF (world wildlife fund?) line up as linemen. Those guys training at catchers would just be doing endless sprints every training session while people throw blocks and balls at them. So ursain Bolt as opposed to the fridge. And in the psyco world of blood bowl that means he is on par with a goblin that is lifting rocks all day long dreaming of being able to punch out one of these muscle bound road blocks.

[burgun824]

Because much like MA8 and ST2, humans should only obtain AG4 on a stat increase.

On what basis do you say that? Why do you hold that opinion? Is it for fluff, or for gameplay reasons, and if for gameplay reasons then what are they? If they are for fluff reasons then I reserve the right to dismiss them out of hand, because for me gameplay >>> fluff. Sorry

Understood. And I have no objections to you standing by that. But I will, in the most friendly way possible, reserve the right to dismiss it out of hand, because for me gameplay would not be compromised by this change.

To answer your question though. It is a judgment call. A human lineman is 6338 and that seems to be the developed standard. So now we need to determine what a human athlete capable of growing in MA ST & AG would be for a postional. A human's growth in the BB world (IMHO) would be negligible for ST & AG. The highest increase would be potentially shown in speed. So I'd give them up to 7338 max on a positional. Somebody must have the same idea because, as we all know, that's the stat line for a human blitzer. Now this is not to say that a human couldn't go as high as 8448, but it would only be achieved in the rarest of instances and therefore held to a stat increase in game sense.

As I've stated before gameplay is important but I believe it should be balanced using starting skills, player cost, positional limits, and skill access....NOT STATS (except for maybe AV on a rare occasion ).

[dode74]

Fair enough, burgun, so I guess we agree to disagree Whether gameplay would be compromised only playtesting will tell - that's why I'd like to see my own suggestion tested to see if it is the huge boost some are suggesting, especially at high TV.

I don't see any compromise in making them ST2, especially with dauntless available on a single (perhaps take away catch and give them dauntless instead?). MA8 takes them away from being just another average team. I'd have no problem mixing up some human and amazon positionals and then labelling them as required so long as the teams worked in testing.

[Smurf]

You can fail Dauntless and that it is not reflexive.

However, an interesting and unique build Dauntless with Juggernaut woud be amusing as skill upgrades.

Where Elves generally dodge and leap etc.

[Smurf]

You can fail Dauntless and that it is not reflexive.

However, an interesting and unique build Dauntless with Juggernaut woud be amusing as skill upgrades.

Where Elves generally dodge and leap etc.

[burgun824]

You can fail Dauntless and that it is not reflexive.

I think I may be misunderstanding you. Dauntless seems like it would be reflexive.

As in when I say, "Oh S#!t...I just failed dauntless and then rolled a skull."

[Kort]

Why is AG4 completely out?

Because much like MA8 and ST2, humans should only obtain AG4 on a stat increase.

Agreed.

I think a team with 2 x AG4 could work, but I would rather have Humans stay as much vanilla as possible.

On the other hand, a reworked Amazon team could be built around such a position.

[Kort]

I don't see any compromise in making them ST2, especially with dauntless available on a single (perhaps take away catch and give them dauntless instead?).

The problem is that Dauntless does not work in defense, but the skill proposed in another thread is interesting: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35124