Improvement table awarding a given value of improvements.

[dode74]

The lizard team you gave, with the skills given, is fairly similar to Hito's in functionality - SF did what dodge does now (dodge away with less chance of falling), so all you're really doing is taking that instead. The added benefit of (old or new) SF is that you can use frenzy for surfing without risking yourself - I can see why you would take it instead of dodge. Hito is taking reliability in blocking instead because SF no longer does what it did. As for it being more "in keeping" with what a lizzie team should be, you both have mobility and hitting power from those saurii, so they function the same (just surf less now). The main difference is caused by the changes to SF rather than by cpomb.

they could completely dominate the bash vs teams like Chaos Dwarves, through good positioning, just a couple of guard players, and their ability to be flexible in blocking wars eg..dodging guard players in to the right place to start block chains etc...

That's exactly how I play them. The killer is a bonus but the real stars are my witch (7357 Blodge Frenzy JU Tackle MB Leap) and one of my other Blitzers (8358 Blodge Leap Guard). Between them they manage some fantastic stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4rE3T1- ... ideo_title (sorry about the poor quality). They've also managed to break 4-BOB cages and last game it was a HE cage which looked pretty solid.

the focus in more on the defensive now and based more on attrition

If anything that's due to the reliability of the running game, as you and DoubleSkulls have said. If the running game were less reliable and cages more easily broken then there would be less stalling and less attrition happening during those stalls. I actually think that it would be a better idea to nerf the running game in some manner (holding back on buffing passing as per the OP just yet) and see how things go from there.

[mattgslater]

I'm pretty much with Garion on that part. Except about bringing back Traits: that's an idea whose time has passed....

I still think we need to do stuff to slow the rate of attrition on rank-and-file players. It's probably a multipart solution. Better fouling, weaker Claw, and I still think a better Apothecary. If you're worried about inducements, maybe Wizards should be 200k.

[garion]

I watched the video and that's not what I am talking about, that is the exact type of hyperball that elf games have become all about now. Leaping about going all out for the ball. What I was talking about is the way middle of the pitch block battle were the dominant style of play, relying more on positional play rather than anything else. Wrestle is also a contributing factor to hyper ball and now with leap and wrestle the ball is never safe, this is why I have made Leap a trait in my rules, so those players cannot be made so easily and also to add to the uniqueness of Wood Elves and Slann.

I don't actually have a problem with stalling and the 2-1 grind etc... what i do have a problem with is games being won by attrition so frequently now.Elves are fine in this rule set because the inducements benefit them more than any other teams and they can still play their hyper ball game when reduced to few numbers. You will still get nice positional play games around the 1500 tv mark which is why I don't play any higher than 1700 now, because games after that mark become so heavily focused on hyper bash and hyper ball. But I also hate the fact that I am now limited to playing only 20 games with teams now because I dont want to do that whole min maxing thing and picking sweet spots, but I also do not want to play high TV games because they are just dull affairs now.

It is obiously a personal thing, but I know many other coaches that do not like the way good positional play is no longer as important as it was, it obviously is still important because it is one of the main focuses of the game, but attrition has become a far far bigger factor now in many games.

[mattgslater]

Remember when BB was a game about a contact sport? Now it's a wargame, and AFAIC, wargames are all the same.

[dode74]

I think that the only thing we all agree on is that fouling needs a buff

Elves have always been about the ball - call it "hyperball" if you like, but it's effective use of the skills and stats available.

what i do have a problem with is games being won by attrition so frequently now

But they aren't. I looked at the stats for FOL and the correlation between winning games and causing more casualties is actually pretty low. The mean cas difference between the winning and the losing team is ~0.5, with a standard deviation of 2.2. This means that the winning team normally either causes 2.7 cas more or takes 1.7 cas more than the losing team. The correlation r is 0.11, meaning that causing more cas than the other team makes a difference in about 13% of games. There is a slightly greater correlation between having the higher TV team and winning than there is between causing more cas and winning.
I've not yet run the same tests on but I can without too much difficulty. I can probably do the same for LRB 4 FUMBBL as I have a fair amount of data from that era as well. That way we can compare and see if attrition has a greater or lesser effect now than it did then.

It is obiously a personal thing, but I know many other coaches that do not like the way good positional play is no longer as important as it was, it obviously is still important because it is one of the main focuses of the game, but attrition has become a far far bigger factor now in many games.

Given the above, that may well just be perception. I'm not dismissing it, merely pointing out a case where the data shows something different to the perception. It may well be that the 13% quoted above is greater in FUMBBL and was less under LRB4 - I'll have a look and see.

[garion]

causing more cas than the other team makes a difference in about 13% of games. There is a slightly greater correlation between having the higher TV team and winning than there is between causing more cas and winning.

Have you tried taking elf teams out of that equation and seeing how the results change. as we have all said elves have done extremely well out of this rule set because of wrestle inducements, journey etc... I would be interested to see how much that percentage jumps with elves out of the way. Maybe take skaven out too.

edit: also there are other stats that refute yours - http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... JunJul.gif

this one is possibly similar to yours though you dont have CD in cyanide still- http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... JunJul.gif

[Hitonagashi]

I'm not trying to be contrary here...but I really don't agree with what you are saying Garion.

I've never played "hyperball"...my Nightmares did fairly well last major, including Malmir dropping the only points he dropped the entire tournament in a 2-2 draw with them in the post qualifier group stages. I'd actually go as far as saying when I look at successful elf teams (querty team, ESBI, Pro Popes), none of them rely on leap strip ball as a weapon and all of them rely on outpositioning your opponent. Okay, as elves now, you can't outbash a chaos team. Erm. Good? You can still win 2-1 by outpositioning and elf stalling them, and you can still deal damage to them and outblock them. The only change from LRB 4 that I feel is that your linemen are now expendable. It's essential to have players you don't mind losing on elf teams now...which wasn't the case before. If you've got your fodder though, you by no means need leap or strip ball to win.

In addition, not only can saurii pile on, you actually really want them to! While if your entire team piles on you are obviously stuffed, a MB PO saurus is a very potent weapon, and if he does most of your blitzing anyway, you don't need to worry about going down. While they aren't my Lanterns, my Tomb Guard qualified through the WO, getting knocked out in OT to Battlelore's chaos, and my Black Saurii have been successful in the Box. Both of them use a MB/PO saurus as a core player in their strategy (as do the Lanterns to be fair).

I'm actually thinking that I don't need my blodge. It's useful in keeping the saurii alive, but it also didn't help that much (tended to get blitzed by MB/tackle/po). On the whole it was good, but the core of the strategy was using a killer saurus and picking where on the pitch to fight (around the sidelines) with lots of surfing and outflanking. The dodge was a nice extra to keep going for 50 games instead of 30.

[mattgslater]

Not always, Dode. Elves don't have to play hyperball. Mine only shift to that game if I take a lot of damage or if I think I can pull a blowout. But that's not my complaint, and Garion's experience there with LRB6 is not mine.

I totally play the elf style Garion's talking about: instead of making 20-40 blocks and gaming around space, keepaway, and OSPT before the quick-strike, I usually make 35-50 blocks and try to control/redirect the point of attack. The goal isn't so much to win all the battles, but instead to leave no holes for repositioning (breakaways okay if they can't score in the turn they break away), isolate the Tacklers, and force the opponent to commit too much to fighting me off to protect the ball properly for long enough. It works beautifully if I can keep my numbers up. I've had a harder time with it in FUMBBL Ranked than in TT (the Expats' 16-2-7 record is nothing to cry about, but it would be a personal worst in TT with elves), but I've attributed that to superior opposition. Elves don't get hurt too bad by ClawPOMB, or rather, they got hurt worse by the old fouling, and by the Guard picks that are now spent on Claw or PO instead. The new Apoth is mean to elves, but not by enough to make a meaningful difference. The new Cas table is mean to elves, but (categorically) not by enough to make up for the buff to underdogs, Journeymen, and the removal of cash from TV. The new TV rules do add dimensions to elf team development, in that both star-driven and team-driven development are viable, while star-driven development used to be heavily dependent on format and the handicap rules of the day (LRB4 was particularly hostile).

In fact, I've noticed that I tend to lose only/mostly to higher-CR coaches with elves, while I tend to lose to a grab-bag of opponents with Orcs. That's my real complaint. Orcs used to be just a little too good, and now they're just a little too balanced. Either your institutional advantages overwhelm your institutional disadvantages and you're almost certain to win, or the opposite happens and you're almost certain to lose. Yawn. It was okay when it was just like that against elves. But Chaos are worse. ClawPOMB going off early? You lose your ST4/Guard, you go down men, and you can't recover in this game; consult Cas/Apo to see if you can recover next game, or ever. ClawPOMB not going off early? Well, those poor Chaotics can't handle your big mob of ST4/Guard, and they're gonna either lose their ClawPOMB or lose their ability to throw credible ClawPOMB blocks. They can't recover in this game; consult Cas/Apo....

All these great ideas to knock Orcs off their pedestal, when one or two of them would have been enough. Mean Cas table, mean Apoth. Players who can't be built quickly limit the value of the now-easy hoarded cash for teams with blockers (especially non-basic, unskilled, AG2 blockers like BOBs) as opposed to all-AG3 teams. Weakened fouling. Exponential killstack with a level they can't have (that's the big one, but you know that).

I'm off the Apoth thing. I agree, that's not where to stop the attrition. So, may I present to you: my new suggestion!

1) Some killstack nerf: once again, I submit making Claw work only when standing, which would be a minor nick to CMB without Block (no effect with Block) and a real-but-not-crippling cut in CPOMB (with or without Block), giving -1 on PO rolls vs AV8 and probably restricting PO to injury vs AV9 (still 7/12 to break...).

2) Some buff to fouling. Sneaky Git = Guard for fouls, plus you can assist your own foul?

3) Change the d68 injury table to d86. Yes, I know the 3:2:1 balance is a sacred cow, but I don't see why. First, "86" is parlance for "you're out of here!" and nothing says that like getting Cas'ed. So it adds new fluff! Second, you can keep the nerfed Apo (and resulting attrition to stars) with less turnover among developing players.

The d86 Cas table
11-46: BH
51-63: SI
64-66: niggle
71-72: -MA
73-74: -AV
75: -AG
76: -ST
81-86: Dead

[Hitonagashi]

Matt, I think all those changes would work.

They are basically Galaks (with your extra injury dice modification) though? I've always thought those are quite nice.

[mattgslater]

#2 is the only one I can't claim ownership of. If you've heard #1 bandied about before, it's because I came up with it last year.

Just sayin'.

[garion]

I know your not Hito, its fine, I dont expect people to agree on everything in BB, no one ever will.

The thing is with teams like Pro Popes is they are still playing very much like they did in LRB4 and in the hands of coaches as good as Dolls they will still be winning the vast majority of their games regardless, just because they are better coaches than most people they play.

I know lizardmen can pile on and will usually have 1, i wrote as much in my lizardmen playbook. The point is they cannot compete with chaos game after game unless they are built solely to play agains them. Your team being a case in point. The problem with that is when you play a well developed elf team you are likely in serious trouble. I would be suprised if your team has managed to beat elves before. I would also guess normal dwarfs would probably give you a tough time as well.

As for elves and hyperball - i am not just talking about leaping strip balling, though it is undeniably powerful. It is the way to win games by just going for the ball. Like Mat I never set out to play like this in any of my games with pro elves, but it is something I fall back on when my numbers start to dwindle. My point is this happen more often now than ever before. Which just leads to more extreme versions of elf play. Less tactical, more down to rolling dice. But elves can cope with this really well now. My main concern is not really for the elves anyway. My main concern is what has happened to Orcs, Dwarves, Undead, Humans, Lizardmen, Vampires, Ogres, Flings, goblins, possibly a few others. These teams just cant do it anymore. We had a couple of great lizardmen teams in lrb4, I doubt we will see one get to a final ever again now. Same for most of those races I mentioned the reason for that is because of CPOMB mainly. Bother directly because of its power and indirectly - because it forces teams in to boring one dimensional development paths that make life even easier for elves.

My main problem and i keep saying this is how boring skill development is now.

[Hitonagashi]

Correct on both counts . Elves do give the Lanterns problems, and so do dwarves.

The thing is...that's actually why I don't like the Lanterns build as much as I do the Tomb Guard. My Black Saurii are currently my favourite build. It's what I was saying about blodge, the TV is wasted..for every 2 dodge I have, I give up an opposing claw/MB/po on the other team, and I don't think that's a good trade.

I do agree that to compete at 2kTV+ for more than 10 games the Lanterns style build is necessary...but I think in majors, a 17-1900 TV lizardman team inducement powered still has a great chance.

[dode74]

causing more cas than the other team makes a difference in about 13% of games. There is a slightly greater correlation between having the higher TV team and winning than there is between causing more cas and winning.

Have you tried taking elf teams out of that equation and seeing how the results change. as we have all said elves have done extremely well out of this rule set because of wrestle inducements, journey etc... I would be interested to see how much that percentage jumps with elves out of the way. Maybe take skaven out too.

I'll see what I can do.

edit: also there are other stats that refute yours - http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... JunJul.gif

They don't refute them at all. There is no indication of how many cas were taken in each match against the scoreline - it could be that there were few matches with many cas that led to a few wins, for example.
Correlation, in this case, means asking "did the team which caused the most cas in that game win the match?" My own stats looked at each match and compared TD difference with cas difference to see if there was a correlation across all the matches. Simply saying "they cause more cas in total and have a higher win% in total" is not an indication of correlation.
Furthermore, that chart doesn't even back up what you are saying. The teams with the lowers "cas caused" are almost all in the top half of the table!

[dode74]

@ Matt
Your changes:
1 is a relative buff to AV 8 and 9 (and therefore a relative nerf to AV7). It removes the entire point of claw: an AV-neutral effect. If you can come up with some other AV-neutral on-pitch effect with a similar application rate then please do, otherwise I think you really need to look at plasmoid's option (because the maths works), but declaring its use before the AV/injury dice are rolled (which I think addresses your concern with it).
2 is good. I also like +1 to the AV roll from fouling.
3 reduces player turnover among all players, not just developing ones. We need to maintain the overall player turnover rate. If you want to maintain the lower-SPP players rather than the higher ones then an alternative would be to add the number of gained skills to the d68 roll, with anything going over the 8 being the next level of injury. For example, a level 4 player (3 gained skills) rolls 37 on the injury table - he adds 3 to that and it becomes 42. That way "older" players have a greater chance of picking up debilitating/career-ending injuries while the young bucks play on. That's just an idea I thought of right now, so it may need refinement (maybe add 2 per gained skill?). It's actually a form of ageing (although not AV-neutral), so I don't know how popular that will be

@ garion

My main concern is what has happened to Orcs, Dwarves, Undead, Humans, Lizardmen, Vampires, Ogres, Flings, goblins, possibly a few others. These teams just cant do it anymore.

Do what?

[garion]

edit: also there are other stats that refute yours - http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... JunJul.gif

They don't refute them at all. There is no indication of how many cas were taken in each match against the scoreline - it could be that there were few matches with many cas that led to a few wins, for example.
Correlation, in this case, means asking "did the team which caused the most cas in that game win the match?" My own stats looked at each match and compared TD difference with cas difference to see if there was a correlation across all the matches. Simply saying "they cause more cas in total and have a higher win% in total" is not an indication of correlation.
Furthermore, that chart doesn't even back up what you are saying. The teams with the lowers "cas caused" are almost all in the top half of the table!

First of all the top 2 teams cause the most cas per game on average, they also have the highest winning percentages. Then if you remove the elves and skaven from the equiation the table makes pretty sorry reading for everyone else who seems to be suffering round about 3 cas a game and all have a win percentage lower than 50%. The only exception to that is amazons who will be doing quite well because their whole team will be blodged up will have at least 4 gaurd players and a little bit of punch as well. Pretty much the perfect team for facing lots of cpomb.

Do what?

win with any consistency.

I do agree that to compete at 2kTV+ for more than 10 games the Lanterns style build is necessary...but I think in majors, a 17-1900 TV lizardman team inducement powered still has a great chance.

I agree to a point there. If they can maintain that TV throughout a tourney then yes they have a great shout, because they will be able to get a wizard and Slibli a fair bit which is just a crazy good combo. But that is a big ask keeping those lizards going for more than 3 games. CPOMB has just hurt them too much i think, and while they may beat the CPOMB teams they face it is the next game that is soo bloomin tough, being 2 saurii down can just destroy your hopes all together.