Passing - a change

[garion]

garion - it's about the playstyle. UD and Necros pass less than the bash teams. The aim was stated in the WoT

Yup I got that, but do they not pass less than bash because they just don't need to. I'm not a great Chaos coach at all with their early team, but when ever I do watch very good Chaos coaches they are often forced into positions where they need to quick pass the ball to win games, is this not a case of chaos teams et al passing more than those two races because they are weaker starter races and forced into these situations and not because it is harder with Necro and undead? Because its not harder, its the same?

[spubbbba]

So I think i have that right (correct me if I'm wrong please), my only issue is that it doesn't really make passing more appealing. The reason for this is - passing is already failry easy to achieve on all elf teams, most have catchers (free re-roll) and most have pass on a player too (free re-roll). It is also fairly easy for zons and humans to pass. However the reason passing skills I think are largely ignore is not just because it is more risky than not passing but it is also not needed. People stall with all teams, stalling is the key to winning in many cases. Passing is key for quick scoring only really. This is the dynamic that you really need to focus on to change passing imo. How you can do this? God knows? It is a really tough one.

Passing is also useful for the good ol 8 turn elf stall. If you can move the ball round the pitch with great reliability then it makes it hard for the other team to get close unless they take out most of your players.

Perhaps i'm missing the point but aren't there already skills which dramatically improve the chances of passing/catching for ag3 players with passing and agility access? And which limit fumbles and which allow you to get rid of the ball when being blitzed? Accurate+Pass gives you good odds of passing the ball accurately, safe throw means you'll only fumble on a natural 1 (accurate makes other fumbles less likely too), dump off lets you get rid of the ball and foil a blitz. Catch+Diving catch gives a human catcher a 2+ rerollable attempt to catch the ball and allows him to catch passes that'll land next to him which also allows you to avoid interceptions. If it's passing at higher ranges you want buffed then just make Strong Arm a passing skill.

It just seems to me that your idea tries to do something for which there's already a solution.

The trouble is that passing and catching skills add the same TV as other ones but are a lot less useful. An elf thrower with accurate, safe throw and strong arm is one hell of a thrower but that's all he's good for. If you gave him blodge, and guard he'd still be a good at passing but would get a lot more use out of that TV. Same with giving a ghoul diving catch, NOS and catch, he's a good receiver but block, SS and guard would be more use to the team.

[Rhyoth]

i'm pretty tired, so i'll just throw my idea in :

_ Although i like the idea of merging Catch an Diving Catch, your revised Pass and Catch skill feel somewhat unnatural, for me, it seems more appropriate to exchange the RR and the +1 between those two skills, so wou would have :
Pass : RR + transfer a +1 to catch roll if first roll succeed
Catch : RR + able to catch ball in adjacent squares

_ stay away from any from any +1 to hand-off roll, it won't help the Passing Game, and it may be source of some issues.
EDIT : OOPS, i must have misread that part.

_ not sure the pass block improvement is required : if you boost the passing game, it already makes this skill more useful. Also i prefer ???'s suggestion to allow a player to stand up (and use Jump Up) during a Pass Block

_ sadly, it seems your changes will hurt Hail Mary Pass, so maybe we can make it a little better by :
a) making it a general skill
b) merging it with Kick
c) merging it with Kick, but scatters 5 times
if you choose b or c, consider allowing Pass Block to be used on Kick/HMP (before the ball scatters, of course

[Kort]

garion - it's about the playstyle. UD and Necros pass less than the bash teams. The aim was stated in the WoT

Not really surprising since both teams have overall low AG and MA. Orcs on the other hand have a majority of AG3 players and access to Pass (and AG) skills. Chaos have universal AG3 and access to mutations for improved ball handling. I would say those two teams are somewhat better suited for a passing game than UD and Necros.

I am not sure than "hybrid" teams should necessarily be designed to pass more often than "bash" teams. In a sense the lack of a passing option is a weakness an UD/Necro player must overcome.

On the other hand, I would like to see more AG3 passing plays for teams that have a designated thrower and many potential receivers, such as Humans, Amazons and Norse. Not too sure about Orcs...

[Chris]

I would be interested in something that helps out ag 3 throwing teams.

[dode74]

@ garion
Early on the UD and Necros won't be able to take advantage due to needing other skills on the WWs and Ghouls. This would make pass a serious doubles consideration for them, enabling the combined catch skill to be a serious later skill. I think you'd agree that it's at higher TVs they'd need the boost.

@ Rhyoth
- I'd need to have a look at the maths to see how that works out. To me the probabilities being right is more important than it "feeling" natural. We already accept some of that with the intercept roll, so we have a precedent for things not making intuitive sense.
- I wasn't suggesting +1 on the hand-off. +1 is only for receiving accurate passes. Combined catch would give a RR for hand-offs in the same manner as catch does now.
- You may be right about pass block not needing improvement. I suggested it as a possibility should it be found that passing ends up being too good overall.
- Not sure how this would hurt HMP. More players with the diving catch skill can only surely make HMP more likely to be useful?

@ Kort
UD and Necro A access players have MA7 and 8 - faster than the bash teams - which may be a reason why they need to pass less. Humans, zons and norse would all benefit from this change as well as UD and Necro at later TVs. Orcs could only benefit from it properly either by fielding goblins or by sacrificing a blitzer to combined catch.

Thanks for the feedback. The general feeling I get is that the intent to improve passing for AG3 teams is on track (and the stats back that up), but that there is little agreement about how to do it (I suggested that might be the case in the OP).

[neverworking]

I think the basic idea is in the right direction. I think humans are probably the team most in need of the boost. I see little need to worry about the lack of passing out of undead and necro. I believe these teams lack of passing is because a) they don't start with any passing/catching skills b)they can cover a great deal of ground on foot already compared to the "bash teams" and c)ghouls don't last terribly long in the first place to get to that point. Those teams have high win % already as well so improving them doesn't seem nearly as critical anyway.

[garion]

Passing is also useful for the good ol 8 turn elf stall. If you can move the ball round the pitch with great reliability then it makes it hard for the other team to get close unless they take out most of your players.

yup agreed, but they can do tht failry easily already and I don't think this change would really make that job any easier for elves. Dode also said this change is mainly for the Hybrid teams and Ag3 teams so they can make passing games a more viable option. I certainly agree that humans and zons could do with a little help here. But Elves are fine already and I'm not really sure the hybrid teams need help here. As said - its my view that passing in not so much rare because of the risks, but more because you do not want to be scoring fast, and even when playing the deep-field stall I always just pressure the thrower as quickly as possible so they have to pass hopefully leading to a quick score.

Early on the UD and Necros won't be able to take advantage due to needing other skills on the WWs and Ghouls. This would make pass a serious doubles consideration for them, enabling the combined catch skill to be a serious later skill. I think you'd agree that it's at higher TVs they'd need the boost.

hmm I still don't think I would consider taking that skill even with the change. Also I think Necro are a very good high TV race because of a certain combo. Undead could possibly do with a little boost at high TV. But for me passing is not where they need that extra boost. Fouling and Dirty Player en masse has always the Undead staple until now and with a boost to fouling again, which seemingly everyone things we need - I think they could perform better at a high end TV.

As you say the intent seems good especially for humans who I think need it more than any other team at high TV. But to me at least, I do not think you can change passing into a truely viable tactic until stalling is changed. As said, passing isnt actually that risky at the moment as it stands but it is alot more risky than not passing or handing off at all which will always be the case.

I would love someone to come up with a new way of passing using pass dice (similar to block dice except with passing icons) and see how they could make that work. Obviously it would be very hard and very different to how it currently works. Any ideas?

FYI - Someone sent me this in an email when I working on my rule. It's not right yet but it is interesting so thought I would put it here. So you can see if you can do better with this idea.

So first of all this is using pass dice wth symbols etc...

Ag5
Quick range: favourable 3 dice
Short range: favourable 3 dice
Long range: 2 dice
Long bomb range: 1 dice

Agility 4
Quick range: favourable 3 dice
Short range: favourable 2 dice
Long range: 1 dice
Long bomb range: unfavourable 2 dice

Agility 3 (or ag4 in one Tacklezone etc..)
Quick range: favourable 2 dice
Short range: favourable 1 dice
Long range: unfavourable 2 dice
Long bomb range: unfavourable 3 dice

Agility 2 (or ag3 stunty)
Quick range: favourable 1 dice
Short range: unfavourable 2 dice
Long range: unfavourable 3 dice
Long bomb range: unfavourable 3 dice

Agility 1
Quick range: unfavourable 2 dice
Short range: unfavourable 3 dice
Long range: unfavourable 3 dice
Long bomb range: unfavourable 3 dice

Strong Arm and Accurate - works pretty much the same, making a longbomb a long pass roll, making a short pass a quick pass etc...
NoS - is the same
Dump off - the same
VLL- cancels safe throw

Just numbered atm but the idea was to make these numbers symbols.
1 - Fumble
2 - If there is an opposing player in passing line, then the pass is thrown to them (auto intercept) instead to the original target. (Opponent choice to which if more than one.) If the passer has safe throw the inteceptor must roll Ag-2 to intercept. If they fail to intercept it is an inaccurate pass. (3*scatter).
3 - The pass is inaccurate (3*scatter). If there is an interceptor it is an auto intercept. If they have safe throw no interception is possible.
4 - The pass is inaccurate (3*scatter). If the passer has Pass then the pass is on target. If they have safe throw no interception is possible.
5 - Pass is accurate. If they have safe throw no interception is possible.
6 - Pass perfect, +1 to catch roll no interception possible.

If the pass is thrown to opposing player (intecept) then they still need to catch the ball If succed, then interception. If it fails, then scatter once. (Basically deflected pass.) Passblock could make this auto catch?

And this was there rationale

Summary of the effect of this model:
- Pass deflection is possible, so better simulation of life.
- Simplified passing sequence. 1 roll determines all cases and effects.
- Short range passes become easier.
- Long bomb becomes harder.
- More interception.
- Better scaled who can pass well, who can intercept well. Random AG 3 or AG 4 player cant pass extremely well (as before), but any passing skill have serious improvement on chances.
- Opponent have more control over covering the pass. More coverage gives better chance to deflect, or intercept the pass. If there are lots of players on the passing line, then the opponent can decide who tries intercepting, and where the ball will land.
- Passing player is motivated to control the passing range better. Better management will increase the chance to succeed.

[dode74]

yup agreed, but they can do tht failry easily already and I don't think this change would really make that job any easier for elves. Dode also said this change is mainly for the Hybrid teams and Ag3 teams so they can make passing games a more viable option. I certainly agree that humans and zons could do with a little help here.

I think spubbbba is suggesting that humans particularly, but also norse and zons would be able to do the elf-stall under these rules. I think zons would need an MA7 piece to make this properly viable though.

I do not think you can change passing into a truely viable tactic until stalling is changed.

I don't think you can ever remove clock control from a time-limited game. What this does though is reward effectively forcing the other team to score by increasing the 2-turn TD odds of AG3 teams with players of 7MA or more.

As said, passing isnt actually that risky at the moment as it stands but it is alot more risky than not passing or handing off at all which will always be the case.

An AG3 player with pass has a 50% chance of a turnover making a short pass to another AG3 player. That's pretty damned risky. It's the same odds as a BOB dodging successfully, and I bet you don't do that unless you absolutely have to

I'd need to look at the odds properly for the proposal you posted, but it's a pretty radical change.

[garion]

An AG3 player with pass has a 50% chance of a turnover making a short pass to another AG3 player. That's pretty damned risky. It's the same odds as a BOB dodging successfully, and I bet you don't do that unless you absolutely have to

I'd need to look at the odds properly for the proposal you posted, but it's a pretty radical change.

only if your passing to a player without catch or you dont have a re-roll. also why would you ever do a short pass without accurate? are you mad

also that's not my suggestions, just something that someone sent to me. it is interesting I haven't had a time to check the odds either but it is interesing.

[dode74]

only if your passing to a player without catch or you dont have a re-roll. also why would you ever do a short pass without accurate? are you mad

Pass, accurate and catch are required to make passing viable now? Seems a bit much to me, especially given that without catch (and this is rather the point of my proposal - that the person catching the ball has huge influence on the turnover risk) the odds are still very low:
Pass/Accurate AG3 Short pass to AG3 unskilled: 59.25% success = 40.75% turnover (roughly the same turnover odds as a -3d block if your player has block - a block Halfling hitting a big guy/mummy, and I bet you don't do those unless you absolutely have to either )
Pass/Accurate AG3 Short pass to AG3 Catch: 79.01% success = 20.99% turnover
Pass/Accurate AG3 Short pass to AG3 unskilled (using my version): 74.01% success = 25.99% turnover
Under current rules even two passing skills still leaves a short pass as a fairly non-viable option unless a RR is available for the catch.

[garion]

only if your passing to a player without catch or you dont have a re-roll. also why would you ever do a short pass without accurate? are you mad

Pass, accurate and catch are required to make passing viable now? Seems a bit much to me, especially given that without catch (and this is rather the point of my proposal - that the person catching the ball has huge influence on the turnover risk) the odds are still very low:
Pass/Accurate AG3 Short pass to AG3 unskilled: 59.25% success = 40.75% turnover (roughly the same turnover odds as a -3d block if your player has block - a block Halfling hitting a big guy/mummy, and I bet you don't do those unless you absolutely have to either )
Pass/Accurate AG3 Short pass to AG3 Catch: 79.01% success = 20.99% turnover
Pass/Accurate AG3 Short pass to AG3 unskilled (using my version): 74.01% success = 25.99% turnover
Under current rules even two passing skills still leaves a short pass as a fairly non-viable option unless a RR is available for the catch.

they are needed when passing with ag 3 teams i fyou are planning short passes yes. This is probably why i have never passed the ball with Undead, Necro or Norse in my life yet I have with humans and if i ever do pass with those races I certainly wouldnt do anything other than a quick pass.

The other key thing with ag3 teams (for me anyway) is their flexibility with stat increases, +ag on a couple of players usually makes passing a little more viable anyway rather than building players specifically for it.

Anyway as I said I understand your idea. Its not bad, but I still dont think it would make me pass anymore than I do and it would possibly make me pass less with elves. The reason passing I think isn't viable is mainly because stalling is the best tactic and as you said to get round that would require a huge change to the mechanics of the game. Which I'm sure neither of us want.

[Ghost]

The win%s are fine. In fact elves have better than average records. No need to change passing, case closed.

[dode74]

garion -

they are needed when passing with ag 3 teams i fyou are planning short passes yes.

See, I find it weird that 3 skills are required by an average team to make an average pass anything like acceptably reliable.

The other key thing with ag3 teams (for me anyway) is their flexibility with stat increases, +ag on a couple of players usually makes passing a little more viable anyway rather than building players specifically for it.

It does, but the catcher still carries a huge proportion of the risk. As I said before, even if you manage to get an AG5 SA/Accurate/Pass thrower, your AG3 target still has twice the chance of causing a TO as an AG4 one. That seems high, and the relative frequencies of passing seem to bear that out.

The reason passing I think isn't viable is mainly because stalling is the best tactic and as you said to get round that would require a huge change to the mechanics of the game. Which I'm sure neither of us want.

Indeed, but it might make stalling less rewarding. Stalling until T7 against elves may well result in a 2TTD on T8, whereas stalling until T7 against humans probably won't because they can't move the ball or dodge reliably. Allowing them to pass the ball would at least go some way to combat that.

ghost -

The win%s are fine.

Indeed they are. I never brought up win% at all.

In fact elves have better than average records.

Generally, yes. Good thing the proposal makes no real difference to elves then. As I said in the OP the aim was to improve AG3 passing relative to AG4 passing, thereby improving the AG3 teams with organic A and P access and open up a viable passing option for them. Humans, norse, and to an extent zons would benefit from this initially, with the UD teams benefiting later on.
Did you actually read the OP or is this a reaction to my posting on the skill cost change thread? Because it's coming across as petulant. I apologise if I am misreading you there but that's how it looks so soon after your previous post.

[Ghost]

You didn't bring up the win%. I did.

The burden to prove things need to change is on you. You will change the game I like. The win% is fine, there is no need for a change. You might have a subjective opinion, but the game does what it was designed for. Case closed. Make a similar thread in the house rules part of the forum.

I did read the OP. It doesn't change a thing. There is no need for a change. You might find it more fun, I don't. And the win% is fine.