Fixing Attrition Mechanics

[DoubleSkulls]

I think the CPOMB should just be fixed by letting none of them stack. So you can still use them all, but the stacking improvement is much smaller. It also reduces the gap between the teams with access to claw and normal S teams in terms of the damage they can do.

So for example a Claw/MB player cannot use MB to break AV8 on a roll of 7, and the combo becomes primarily a +1 to injury.

[plasmoid]

Hi guys,
having thought about it, I'm a bit less enthusiastic.

A measly +1, and you have to go prone before the roll.
In the old days of having to go prone before the roll, you got your ST as a modifier to the armor roll. And for the ST3 guys that wasn't considered spectacular. If this is like Mighty Blow - Are you sure this is good enough?

And if it's +1 to both armor and injury, then I'm curious to see math for the stack.

Can you post some math?

I wonder of the random element in PiOn is really worth it, because designwize this has to be compensated for with even more power. And there are situations when you're already in the majority, where the penalty will be insignificant compared to the damage you can deal...
[still thinking]

[Chris]

the stack aside for a moment - I like the 'add number of skills to injury roll' idea.

So your precious 6 skilled blitzer is now going to get done in on a 54 or better (you would have to re-write the table with x9 and y0 added onto y1). So deaths go from 2/12 to 3/12 in that case. Blood bowl is after all a young creatures game!

WOuld not do anything greater than 1 per skill. SHouldn't have a massive effect, just enough of one to put your heart in your mouth when the star is laid low by a goblin with a chainsaw!

[spubbbba]

So, another Claw, Piling On, Mighty Blow thread likely to be populated by folks already debating it to death elsewhere, great, awesome.
Ok, 2 cents chipped in, now i'll leave everyone else to debate percentages and figures.

Well the thread does have its uses. The next time someone derails another interesting thread by bringing Claw/PO into things we can tell them to keep such discussion here.

[mattgslater]

So, another Claw, Piling On, Mighty Blow thread likely to be populated by folks already debating it to death elsewhere, great, awesome.
Ok, 2 cents chipped in, now i'll leave everyone else to debate percentages and figures.

Well the thread does have its uses. The next time someone derails another interesting thread by bringing Claw/PO into things we can tell them to keep such discussion here.

That's very much part of the plan, Spubb. I made this thread because I felt bad about derailing the other thread about Joe's good, flawed, and tangentially related idea. Now, future threads won't suffer that fate, at least for a few months, and we can keep debating it.

The debate isn't endless, by the way. We're actually making headway.

[mattgslater]

Ah-ha! d68 table, as normal.

11-58: As normal.
61-64: Severe injury. If the d8 result is less than the player's Rank, he is forced to retire. Otherwise, treat as Miss Next Game. Additionally, after the player misses a match, roll 1d6 for him. On a 1-3, he misses the next match as well, and must roll again after the match. On a 4-6, he makes a full recovery.
65-68: Dead, Dead, Dead!

[dode74]

@ mattgslater
That's not bad as changes to the injury table go. It would have less of an effect than mine (which will increase the number of non-BH rolls overall to higher ranked players) but would instead go the opposite way (reducing the number of deaths on low ranked players). Depending on whether you want an overall increase or decrease to attrition will determine which I prefer, but both achieve the aim of making a differential between the attrition rate of low and high ranked players.
The only thing I am uncertain about is whether it will lead to positionals simply being replaced due to the unknown number of MNGs (and a large treasury being available to bash teams). If the bank were applied as well this would ameliorate that concern to an extent.

Regarding PO, this was your proposal: viewtopic.php?p=624049#p624049
I would consider changing that slightly:

Piling On (Strength skill)
A player with Piling On may, if he is adjacent to his prone defender during his own Block, Blitz, or Foul action, place himself prone before rolling either the defender's AV or injury. If he goes prone prior to the AV roll you may then add +1 to any AV and/or Injury rolls the player makes in this action. A player who has not chosen to Pile On for the AV roll may not subsequently go prone unless AV is broken. If he chooses to go prone after AV is broken then the +1 modifier is only added to the injury roll. This ends the player's action, but only causes a turnover if the Piling On player was carrying the ball. Do not roll AV against the player using this skill; he is placed prone, not knocked down.

The reason for this is that it allows a player to choose to use PO on the injury if he initially decides it is more tactically advantageous to be upright if the opponent may get up during his own turn, but finds there is no tactical disadvantage to going prone if the opponent is already at least stunned. I feel it is a bit more useful this way and therefore not over-nerfed. the "not chosen to Pile On for the AV roll" bit is to prevent tactically going prone (to block a path, for example).
I'll post some math when I get the time.

[mattgslater]

I like your new Piling On much better.

Hey, what if PO came with the RR, but only worked on stuns? It would help AV7 teams vs POMB (more than AV9 teams, where often POMBers won't RR a failed AV roll), but it would help AV9 teams vs CPOMB.

So...

Piling On (Strength)
The player may use this skill after he has made a block or a foul as part of one of his Block, Blitz, or Foul actions, but only if the Piling On player is currently standing adjacent to the victim, the victim's Armour has been broken, and the Injury roll results in a Stun. You may re-roll the Injury roll for the victim. The Piling On player is Placed Prone in his own square — it is assumed that he rolls back there after flattening his opponent. (Do not make an Armour roll for him, as he has been cushioned by the other player!) Piling On dos not cause a turnover unless the Piling On player is carrying the ball. Piling On cannot be used with the Stab or Chainsaw skills.

[dode74]

I do have a little bit of an issue with PO being a fouling skill in that it is S access. If Sneaky Git were rewritten in some manner such that it not only included a fouling part (acting as guard) but also a generally useful part then it would balance nicely for all teams.

That said, I wouldn't want to add too much to the utility of something like PO. I think it needs to be worse than MB.

[Chris]

It shouldn't be part of pile on, but there should be a strength fouling skill that is basically re-roll the armour roll if you 'fall' on.

[mattgslater]

I do have a little bit of an issue with PO being a fouling skill in that it is S access. If Sneaky Git were rewritten in some manner such that it not only included a fouling part (acting as guard) but also a generally useful part then it would balance nicely for all teams.

That said, I wouldn't want to add too much to the utility of something like PO. I think it needs to be worse than MB.

Applied only to stun, it's much weaker than MB. So much so that it desperately wants to be usable on fouls. 'Course, you also need a mechanic saying the fouling player is ejected if the original roll or the re-roll is a double.

Assume 46,656 (6^6) knockdowns

Vs AV7, or with Claw
Rookie: 27,216 fails, 11,340 stuns, 4,860 KOs, 3,240 Cas
MB only: 19,440 fails, 12,636 stuns, 7,884 KOs, 6,696 Cas
PO only: 27, 216 fails, 6,615 stuns, 7,695 KOs, 5,130 Cas (11,340 PO uses)
POMB: 19,440 fails, 6,021 stuns, 11,493 KOs, 9,702 Cas (8,100 PO uses)

Vs AV9
Rookie: 38,800 fails, 4,536 stuns, 1,944 KOs, 1,296 Cas
MB only: 33,696 fails, 6,264 stuns, 3,672 KOs, 3,024 Cas
PO only: 38,800 fails, 2,646 stuns, 3,078 KOs, 2,052 Cas (4,536 PO uses)
POMB: 33,696 fails, 3,114 stuns, 5,418 KOs, 4,428 Cas (6,264 PO uses)

[dode74]

I'd rather beef it up for blocks than have it usable for fouls, tbh. It's the S access which puts me off the fouling thing rather than anything else - cheap linemen (humans, orcs, UD, necro, khemri) need the help.

[mattgslater]

Cheap Linemen need help? On that, we can differ. I think the ones who need help are mid-price AG2 Blockers, like Longbeards and BOBs. Teams that live on really cheap guys, or whose cheap guys are all-round players, can cope with the damage much more efficiently.

[mattgslater]

PO to stuns only, eject on any doubles, fouling vs AV4: 46,656 perms. Assume DP not used on double-2 with SG.

Format:
Skill set: Cas %, Cas/KO %, Eject %. Cas+KO per ejection.
Fail (eject); Stun (ej); KO (ej); Cas (ej).

Rookie: 13.9%, 34.7%, 28.7%. 1.21.
7776 (2592); 22680 (5832); 9720 (2232); 6480 (2736).

SG Only: 13.9%, 34.7%, 23.1%. 1.50.
7776 (0); 22680 (5832); 9720 (2232); 6480 (2736).

DP Only: 24.5%, 52.1%, 29.6%. 1.76.
3888 (1296); 18468 (5940); 12852 (2916); 11448 (3672).

PO Only: 22.0%, 55.0%, 34.7%. 1.58.
7776 (2592); 13230 (4806); 15390 (4158); 10260 (4644).

SG/DP: 24.1%, 50.9%, 24.1%. 2.12.
5184 (0); 17712 (5184); 12528 (2592); 11232 (3456).

SG/PO: 22.0%, 55.0%, 29.2%. 1.88
7776 (0);13230 (4806); 15390 (4158); 10260 (4644).

DP/PO: 35.0%, 74.4%, 34.1%. 2.18.
3888 (1296); 8073 (3681); 18369 (5025); 16326 (5910).

SG/DP/PO: 34.3%, 72.5%, 28.5%. 2.54.
5184 (0); 7632 (3240); 17856 (4512); 15984 (5568).

Observation 1: DP/PO is definitely better than nothing. Add PO to each combo, calculate Cas, KO/Cas, Ejection difference as a percentage of non-PO chance.
Rookie vs PO: +58.3%, +58.3%, +21.0%
SG vs POSG: +58.3%, +58.3%, +26.0%
DP vs PODP: +42.6%, +42.8%, +15.1%
DPSG vs PODPSG: +42.3%, +42.4%, +18.6%

That's meaningful. But is it worth building S-access players for? It might be worth a double on a G-access player, when you consider its blocking value. This variant on PO would function as a half-assed variant of both MB and DP, and would be a buff to second or third skills on cheap linemen. Nowadays, when your DP/Wrestle Human Lino rolls a double-4, you take Guard, probably stop fouling with him until you're man-up and just accept that he'll die soon. But with this rule, he might consider PO as an alternative, saving you from having to build a second DP.

Observation 2: Sneaky Git isn't just bad; it's absolutely horrible. Pathetic, even. Maybe it should apply to all AV rolls instead of giving it a secondary buff. So you only get caught fouling if you roll a double on the injury roll. Then POSG would still be a POS combo, but naked SG and DPSG would receive a big buff.

[mattgslater]

So now, here we are.

1) Piling On only applies to injury rolls.
2) Piling On may be used on a Foul action.
3) Sneaky Git prevents a player from getting caught fouling by rolling doubles on the Armour roll. If the Injury roll is a double, the player is still caught.
4) Sneaky Git players may always assist their own or friendly players' fouls.
5) A player can assist his own fouls.
6) Foul assists are now optional, and are calculated after the die roll like other modifiers. (The reason to make the foul assist mandatory has been eliminated.)

Anticipated Upshot:
1) POMB/CPOMB would still be good, but no longer geometrically better than MB/CMB; only exponentially so. This makes POMB/CPOMB into one of a few good options, rather than the basic rule. This would probably be the nail-in-the-coffin for the nascent "alley-cat" (ten Claws) school of Chaos; though it wouldn't do the Finns any favors, either, it would still leave them intact to combat the Tentacle stymie and "mobile Orklahoma" schools that are now eclipsed by the shadow of ClawPOMB. Norse would have some adapting to do, but it probably wouldn't be too painful.
2) PO/DP is a viable combo for any cheap ST3 player with G skills, and benefits from Block. It's marginal for GS players, except as a competitor to Tackle on BCPOMB Beastmen, or as a one-off Chaos Pact deal.
3) DP/SG is a viable combo for a cheap player with A skills, like a Goblin with a double. It's still not worth a double for SG, but it doesn't suck nearly so hard. It's pretty marginal on a 70k player, maybe worth it on a 60k GA player (Pro Elf Lino).
4) Fouling in general is a bit better.
5) The foulstack is 3 skills deep, but nobody would ever bother putting it all together unless they rolled multiple doubles on a Stunty, or a 76SPP Dirty Player (who may also need multiple doubles). You'd see two-part foulstacks a lot more often, though. (Which is to say, rarely as opposed to never.)

Winners and losers:

Winners: Amazons, Dwarfs, Elves, Goblins, Halflings, Humans, Ogres, Orcs, Skaven, Underworld.
Losers: Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs, Norse, Nurgle.

Upside: Net gain for the teams that get hurt the most by the rules. Dwarfs and Orcs like to spam Guard and can't take Claw, so not being able to PO AV failures isn't such a big deal. OTOH, taking a big chunk out of ClawPOMB vs their Blockers, that is a big deal. And then there are the other effects. Softening POMB vs Dwarf Runners and Slayers, offering a real skill track to Goblins, and adding a great doubles option for a DP Lineorc, that stuff matters. Chaos and Nurgle get just a touch weaker, and it hits them where they're best, which will make for more fun team development.

Downside: This is a net gain for Skaven and Amazons; there is no way to sugarcoat it. That's not good, but it's not a catastrophe: where such teams proliferate, so does Tackle. It also hurts Norse, which is not optimal. But it's hardly crippling, even then.