Ape Roster

[Pitch Invader]

You probably noticed the Ape kickstarter project, that ends soon... Chance said eh'd get an ape tattoo if it reached $5k, so go check that out

Anyway, I was thinking it'd be nice if Apes had their own roster, instead of only having the option to be counts-as minis for other teams.

The long version of the thought process is here:
http://laughingferret.blogspot.com/2011 ... -team.html

1. Have position players for the minis that are being created. This is: Orangutan thrower, Chimp linemen, Chimp runners, Gorilla Blockers and Gorilla Blitzers. I also added a 'Silverback' as a Big Guy: Impact is offering Gorillataur minis in some sets, and Reaper & other manufactures have some super-sized Gorillas ... and I figure people will want some kind of centerpiece 'King Kong' type model.

2. Strong, moderate speed and agility. Some apes can do amazing moves in the trees, but a pitch is just flat grass. So I decided the team is best kept at Agility 3

3. Different play style. I wanted to avoid something as simple as hairy orcs. I also want the team to be a bit more challenging. So that means different starting skills than are normally seen.

- Glaring obvious: no starting Block skill. Apes are new to Blood Bowl. They have to learn Block. And that will make the team very different from most teams. The combo of Fend, Stand Firm, Grab & Juggernaut should create a team that has a lot of opportunity to decide where their pieces will be on the field as well as the ability to influence where opponent players end up on the field. I think it'd end up being an interesting team to play.

Here's the Roster:

What do you think?

[inkpwn]

Nice team logo.
Seems a touch OP, stand firms a powerfull starting skill and the teams allready very strong, I think the big guy should also be AV8 like the other wild animals. Maybe drop the running piece to ST2.

[dode74]

Very strong roster, imo. Starting without block is nice, but after some development they will be hard to handle. 660k for the 8 positionals leaves 3 players to fill and 340k to do it. 150 for 3 line chimps plus 180 for 3 RR makes for a very nice starting roster at 990k even without block. I'd even question the need to take two orangutans - you could swap him out for a linechimp and leave 30k in the bank, giving very good odds of an apoth after game 1.

My development paths:
Runners: Block, dodge, SS
Orangutan: Pass, Accurate
Blitzers: Block, MB, PO (works well with Jugs) on one at least, with the other possibly taking Guard instead of PO. I'd also consider frenzy on the PO one.
Blockers: Guard, Block, MB
Silverback: Guard, Grab

[rodders]

It's a very strong roster maybe too over powered as well.

I'd have as my starting roster:
2 blockers
2 blitzers
2 runners
silverback
orangutan
3 line chimps and 2 rr

after buying an aopth and a spare player i'd only have to worry about purchasing replacements which wouldn't be too often given those stats

[sann0638]

See, some people just slap some text together off the top of their heads. PI puts a proper roster together rulebook style. Excellent.

[Pitch Invader]

Thanks for the comments and feedback- one mistake I just noticed, Gorilla Blockers are supposed to be Movement 4, not 5.

It is a strong roster, but I think it's not as solid as Orcs, Undead, Necro, Dwarves and maybe others.
Strength-wise they're on par with Orcs: one strength 5 and 4 strength 4 players, but costlier players than those orcs- though they get some skills for that cost, but not the 'auto-picks' that most would want for starting. But after those 5 strength pieces, the apes have up to 2 runners to counter the orcs' 4 blitzers.

I had considered chimp runners at strength 2, but I just can't picture chimps being strength 2. I can understand wood elves being strength 2, slann.. but chimps are strong, and strength 2 runners would only end up dropping their cost further, allowing more cash for other players & rerolls. The cost for the runners seems fair: ghouls cost the same, but have dodge instead of fend, which is almost always better, (void when facing dwarves).

maybe rerolls go up to 70k? the team doesn't start with block or dodge, and the chimp runners don't start with catch, so rerolls are going to be needed often, so that'd be a way to dial them back some. 70k rerolls would mean having to start with 1 reroll if you want the silverback, or waiting on the king ape so you can start with 3 rerolls and have to save a long time for the big guy.

[legowarrior]

I like the team a lot, but I if you are open to suggestions, I would condense the Gorilla blockers and blitzers into one positional. Otherwise they are very similar.
Also, why are Gorilla Blockers are cheaper then the Gorilla Blitzers?

0-4 Gorilla Blitzer 6/4/2/8 - Grab, Thick Skull - 110K

Anyway, I'm a huge fan the orangutan. Strong arm just fits with them (and so might big hands).

[dode74]

Also, why are Gorilla Blockers are cheaper then the Gorilla Blitzers?

one mistake I just noticed, Gorilla Blockers are supposed to be Movement 4, not 5.

[Kort]

Very strong roster, imo. Starting without block is nice, but after some development they will be hard to handle.

I agree. The roster has one glaring weakness, starting without power skills, but the rest is above average. It has the best strength in the game. Armor is also very good. Skill access is diversified. Low agility and speed on some players is not too much a penalty since the team is gifted with good playmakers and reasonably fast and nimble linemen. Low reliability is somewhat mitigated by the presence of Sure Hands, Juggernaut and even Fend (less dodges).

This is an above average tier 1 roster. It will start badly (but still better than Chaos, Nurgle and Khemri) but will dominate as soon as key players pick up a few skills. Orcs and Chaos will only catch up when their better skill access will make a difference at high TV.

My other concern is the pricing. Most positional players receive slight price cuts, which makes the roster a bit too affordable, even considering 60k RR counters.

I think it is a great roster nevertheless, as a less boring version of Orcs.

I would suggest AV8 Blitzers (no price change) and MA4, 100k Blockers. Maybe 70k RRs.

[Pitch Invader]

Sometimes it seems players pay 20k for stat & skill bumps, sometimes on teams it looks like just 10k. I went for the 10k per skill over stats of the orc-counterpart, since they are sub-prime skills, but for the gorillas it could be reasonable to go with 20k bumps since they're strength 4 pieces: skills are more valuable given that they're on a stronger player.

I'd argue the apes don't have the best strength in the game however, but tied would be true. Both Chaos (& Nurgle) and Orcs have 1 strength 5 player and 4 strength 4 as well. Now, neither of those teams have starting skills on their strength 4 players, but the orcs come much cheaper and chaos have higher agility, higher move for 2 of them and mutation access. So raw strength is tied for the 3, but it's debatable what breaks the tie, the advantage of some starting skills, increased agility & mutation access or spare cash for the rest of the team. Lizards have more high strength pieces, but handicapped by lots of strength 2. Khemri run close behind with 4 strength 5 players.

To answer the issue about rolling the two gorilla positions into one, I separated them because there will be 2 types of gorilla miniatures made.

reworking the costs and adding in gibbons, so will update the ideas soon

[Pitch Invader]

had a chance to make the new roster.

changes:
* upped cost of rerolls to 70k
* Lowered Gorilla Blitzer armor to 8
* Upped Gorilla Blocker cost to 100k and corrected the move value.
* Added Gibbons. cost balanced by looking at skinks and goblins. compared to skinks they have 1 less move and a less useful starting skill. compared to goblins they have an increased move one less skill, and a less useful skill than dodge. Like most strength 2 players they have stunty and agility access only for standard skill rolls.

-I wanted to stick to the idea of limiting starting reroll skills to just the orang's sure hands, making dodge & block the compelling skills for first choice for players in general will slow the team's progress compared to a lot of other teams. Gibbons start with diving tackle, as i imagine they're aggressive players, and will be annoying to the opposition, but it puts them at risk. Again keeping with the starting play-style concept being one of trying to dictate player positions on the field.

here's the roster:

[Hitonagashi]

It really feels like this would be a top tier 1 team. A Stand Firm Wild Animal big guy is immense(hello guard/sf, one of the better combos out there in 1 skill), and the big disadvantage chaos/nurgle have is their lack of speed, which the runners give this team.

I don't think I'd take gibbons..it would be tough, as they are straight better than goblins after 1 skill, but the only reason Orcs take goblins is for TTM. I'd also only take orangutangs in a tournament setting for a 20k rr. Why bother with one when a runner can be given sure hands on a normal skill?

Hilarity would be having a Blitzer and a Blocker both with frenzy. Surf anyone!

[Dr. Von Richten]

I dunno.

compare them with Orcs:

Line Chimps are about equal to Line Orcs, but it's not really relevant, as you will have 11+ players without any lineman on either team.

Gibbons are better than Goblins, as the +1 move they have is harder to get than the dodge they don't have, and they got an extra skill (Diving Tackle) that most Goblins would get as first or second skill anyway.

Orangutans are better than Orc Throwers, as the Strong Arm they have is harder to get than the Pass they don't have.

Gorilla Blockers are better than Black Orc Blockers, as they got an extra skill (Grab).

The Silverback is better than the Troll, as Wild animal is less bad than Really Stupid, and Stand Firm is better than Thick Skull. The Trolls Throw team mate is nice (though always Hungry and AG 1 make it less so), but doesn't bridge the gap IMO, and Regeneration doesn't make him better on the field (and is less important with S 5 and AV 9 anyway).

Gorrilla Blitzers v.s. Orc Blitzers? Hmm that might be an equal match, as S4 and Juggernaught is very nice, but with -1 to MA and AG and Av and no Block, I just might prefer the Orc.

Finally, you have the Chimp Runners, which have no equivalent on an Orc team, but are faster than any Orc player, and will be able to grow into great ballcarriers with their GA access.

So there you have it, with the possible exception of the Blitzers, Apes are better then Orcs in every way. Maybe Orc teams will be preferable out of the Box, but for a league of any length I can't see anyone not wanting to play these apes instead of the ubiquitous Greenskins.

I would at least remove Sure hands from the Orangutans, Grab from the Gorilla Blockers and Diving Tackle from the Gibbons, then see how the team performs.

Btw.: despite my criticism, I do like the general idea of this, so keep it up!

[Kort]

I hate the presence of Gibbons (too gimmicky) but I think that without them the roster is worth trying.

I disagree with the player-by-player comparison with the Orcs. What makes Orcs dominant is the presence of 8 players with access to strength skills, 4 of them being easy to develop. Apes have only 4 and are much harder to develop.

[Heff]

I hate the presence of Gibbons

BLASPHEMER!!!!