Translation of the Dwarf Giants

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 4:19 pm

No time yet to get information posted ... more to follow.

Post by **Thadrin** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:06 pm

OK, using what Tom has on his website, and the team roster I got from Deathwing (cheers for that) here's my attempt at the Giants:

1) Grimwold Grimbreath - Star Blitzer -6/5/3/10/Block, Thick Skull, M.Blow
2) Axebreaker Jones - Star Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Piling on, Jump Up, NoS.
3) Icesplitter Wyrdhelm - Veteran Blitzer -
5/3/3/9/Block, Thick SKull, Sure Hands, Pass Block.
4) Kurt Livingrock - Veteran Trollslayer -
*note - in 2nd ed this guy was a blitzer. As Dwarf teams are only allowed two now, I made him a slayer instead*
5/3/2/8/Frenzy, Dauntless, Block, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Dodge
5) Granite Rivalblade - Star Longbeard -
4/4/1/10/Block,Tackle,Thick Skull,Guard, Strip Ball (age: -1 AG)
*Note Tom's version only gives him a +1ST and +1 AV (Magic Helmet?). He should have two more SPP rolls to be a Star.*
6)"Pick" Seamsunder - Star Longbeard -
3/5/1/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Pro (age: -1MA, -1AG)
*Added Pro to Tom's version as he has Luck as one of his skills according to his card.*
7)Rockrider Howitzer - Veteran Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm.

Dimitri Coaleyes - Veteran Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Guard, Mighty Blow
9) Fritz Herbgrinder - Exp. Longbeard -
5/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull
10) Artu Tunnelflame - Rookie Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull
11) Flintforge Hammer - Vet runner -
6/3/3/8/Block, Sure Hands, Thick Skull, Nerves of Steel
*Note - in the original roster this was one of two kickers. The Runner position didn't exist then though, and I thought the team would have one. The skills are still good ones for a kicker.*
12) Longstrider Anvilsteam - Veteran Kicker -
6/3/3/8/Thick Skull, Sure Hands, Kick, Block
13) Gunnar Diamondvein - Veteran Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Strip Ball
14) Patizan Helmut - Exp. Longbeard -
4/3/3/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull
15) Stoneshape Peakbreaker - Exp. Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow
16) Ferdinand "Gunner" Gunnarsson - Exp. Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Hail Mary pass

God only knows who came up with those dreadful names.
Edit: remove a smiley and add a couple of small changes.

[ This Message was edited by: Thadrin on 2002-02-10 17:13 ]

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 9:27 pm

Not sure about skill upgrades that require doubles, at least on non-Stars that don't have them or equivalent in 2e, e.g. the AG increase on Patizan Helmut and Hail Mary Pass on "Gunnar" Gunnarson.
Other than that, initial reaction is that this is a VERY strong team!

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:06 pm

Thradin,

Its a great starting point ... however my website is out of date and I thoughts on translating 2e to BB2k1 have changed so I need to update some of the stars ... I'll take what you've done and add redo the stars a little and see what we get.

I don't agree with replacing the Kickers with Runners though. The Dwarf team had a Thrower position which stat-wise links well to the current Dwarf Runner ... the Dwarf Giants had NO Throwers ... so it would be my opinion that the team would not have any Runner either. The two Kickers would be Longbeards with Kick and then their extra skills for Veteran and Experienced status ... my belief would be that Sure Hands on both of them and then HMP as the extra skill for Flintforge and then get something else for Gunner.

Galak

[ This Message was edited by: GalakStarscraper on 2002-02-10 22:07 ]

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 6:05 am

Okay, took Thradin's thoughts and went back to my translation notes and here is what I get for the Dwarf Giants .... one nasty team ... they have some trouble moving the ball, but then again you didn't have any players left to stop them once they picked it up anyway .... did you?

http://www.midgardbb.com/OtherTeams/Cha ... iants.html

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 8:12 am

Galak-
I gave Gunnarsson HMP simply because of his nickname - "Gunner". It just screamed out HMP to me.
As for the kickers being Longbeards thing, I was going on the theory that Chet's kicking rules (I won't get started, its ok...

) subbed in Kickers for Runners.
I don't think I ever actually used my 2nd ed dwarf thrower mini....
Just realised I didn't take into account the differernce between Blockers and Longbeards D'OH.
I'll take a look at your Roster and give it another go when I get home in about 7 hours *sighs*

Deathwing - AG upgrades aren't THAT rare (1 in 12) and I don't think I had one on the entire team apart from that one. Just happened to fall on a Longbeard. I've had it happen to me...

[ This Message was edited by: Thadrin on 2002-02-11 08:17 ]

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 4:16 pm

OK - I've been through both Galak's Roster and my own again.
One thought on yours Galak: The extra ST on all the guys who were Blockers accompanied by -1AG. While I understand while you've done it (direct translation and all that), it doesn't fit with the development rules (aging after the first SPP roll? how many double 6s). I thought that maybe giving all the "Blockers" Guard would be an adequate and not quite so vicious alternative. I'm keeping the Runner though...and I added the second Slayer you proposed.
The new version:
1) Grimwold Grimbreath - Star Blitzer –
6/5/3/10/Block, Thick Skull, M.Blow,+2ST, Magic Helmet
2) Axebreaker Jones - Star Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Piling on, Jump Up, NoS.
3) Icesplitter Wyrdhelm - Veteran Blitzer -
5/3/3/9/Block, Thick Skull, Sure Hands, Pass Block.
4) Kurt Livingrock - Veteran Trollslayer -
5/3/2/8/Frenzy, Dauntless, Block, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Dodge
5) Granite Rivalblade - Star Longbeard -
4/4/1/10/Block,Tackle,Thick Skull,Guard, +1 ST, Strip Ball, Break Tackle, Magic Helmet (age: -1 AG)
6)"Pick" Seamsunder - Star Longbeard -
3/5/1/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Guard, Mighty Blow, Pro, +2 ST (age: -1MA, -1AG)
7)Rockrider Howitzer - Veteran Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Guard, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm.

Dimitri Coaleyes - Veteran Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Guard, Mighty Blow
9) Fritz Herbgrinder - Exp. Longbeard -
5/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, +1MA, Guard
10) Artur Tunnelflame - Rookie Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Guard
11) Flintforge Hammer - Vet runner -
6/3/3/8/ Sure Hands, Thick Skull, Nerves of Steel, Block
12) Longstrider Anvilsteam - Veteran Kicker -
6/3/3/8/Thick Skull, Sure Hands, Kick, Block
13) Gunnar Diamondvein - Veteran Trollslayer -
5/3/2/8/Block, Frenzy, Dauntless, Thick Skull, Strip Ball, Mighty Blow
14) Patizan Helmut - Exp. Longbeard -
4/3/3/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, +1AG
15) Stoneshape Peakbreaker - Exp. Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow
16) Ferdinand "Gunner" Gunnarsson - Exp. Longbeard -
4/3/2/9/Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, Hail Mary pass

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 4:55 pm

Don't agree with Guard ... I see where you are coming from but just don't agree with it, the blockers were slower and stronger. ... Also putting HMP on the kicker is more representative of the punting ability then giving it to Gunner ... I gave Gunner Strip Ball because he was so good at gunning for the ball.

Also I'm not sure where all the -1 AG is coming from, no one on the roster should be below AG 2.

As for unbelievable aging.
6 players have 1 aging effect:
1 has made 7 skill rolls
1 has made 4 skill rolls
2 have made 3 skill rolls
1 has made 2 skill rolls
1 has made 1 skill roll

Now its not outside the realm of probability that this would have occurred.

Also I cannot agree with having Runners ... the BB2k1 Runner and the 2E Thrower are almost identical stats-wise and the Dwarf Giants don't have any Throwers ... so no Runner on the team. Its a plain and simple bash you until the ground until you don't get up any more team.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 4:57 pm

I'll look over your other changes and make the necessary adjustments.

Galak

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 6:52 pm

Working on Chet's rule of Kicker=Runner though it makes sense.

Problem here is you make sense too. This is the problem we face. I find it hard to believe that there would be a Dwarf team that didn't include at least ONE Runner. You really learn to appreciate those guys. In the nightmare game I had yesterday (lost a Slayer and a Longbeard permanantly) one runner threw for a TD and ran for one. Admittedly his first skill upgrade was +1AG

.

I can live with Gunner having Strip Ball...but a Longbeard with HMP around all the mighty Blow/Guard/Strip Ball/Stand Firm guys a Dwarf team involves sounds fun

Back to the subject at hand: -1 Ag ARGH! -1 MA I mean. Sorry. In one case it IS unbelievable: for the first SPP roll there's no aging. All that +1ST seems WAYYYYYY powerful though....Guard just seems an elegant way to give most likely the same s dice block effect without the unlikely event of each player having got a 6+6 on a skill roll.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:41 pm

I need to pull out my 2E books and compare some things ... I need to really look at the player to see if ST 4 or Guard is better ....

Couple other footnotes ... I will not allow the probability of developing such a team stop me from creating the players via direct translation ... my only rule is that the team be POSSIBLE not PROBABLE. These 8 teams are the cream of the crop and as such probability should not be a factor ... the teams should inspire awe and trembling.

Also you mentioned that you cannot age on your first skill roll ... sorry, a 2D6 roll of 2 on your first skill roll results in aging, so the team is still probable.

Chet's kicking rules have no relationship to official BB2k1. I enjoyed the kicking rules and cannot wait to get CJ #47 to see my name in it, but a Kicker in 2E had the exact same stats as a Longbeard ... they just also had Kick ... so Chet's kicking rules aside, I'm sticking with direct translation as this is the route we have so far agreed to take as a group and I'm not running off road yet without a better reason.

As for the concept of HMP being cool ... look at the roster on my site .. one of the Kicker has Kick, Sure Hands, and HMP ... Sure Hands is an great Kicker type skill for a Rugby type punter and HMP is a great simulation of punting. So this element was included on the roster, just not with the player you were thinking.

Like I said I'll double check my ST 4 vs Guard logic and some of your skill choices and try to update the site later.

Galak

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Feb 12, 2002 7:30 am

"I need to pull out my 2E books and compare some things ... I need to really look at the player to see if ST 4 or Guard is better .... "

Give me a wall of four or five longbeards with guard and you get effective strengths of 5 or even 6 (

) thanks to the assists you otherwise wouldn't get. Guard could potentially be more devastating.

"Couple other footnotes ... I will not allow the probability of developing such a team stop me from creating the players via direct translation ... my only rule is that the team be POSSIBLE not PROBABLE. These 8 teams are the cream of the crop and as such probability should not be a factor ... the teams should inspire awe and trembling."

OK. I can live with that I guess...all that ST4....*cringe* I would NOT want to be an opponent.

"Also you mentioned that you cannot age on your first skill roll ... sorry, a 2D6 roll of 2 on your first skill roll results in aging, so the team is still probable."

ARGH. I read the table wrong! I thought there was no risk of aging on the first roll, and aging kicked in on the second....
my bad. Again.

"Chet's kicking rules have no relationship to official BB2k1. I enjoyed the kicking rules and cannot wait to get CJ #47 to see my name in it, but a Kicker in 2E had the exact same stats as a Longbeard ... they just also had Kick ... so Chet's kicking rules aside, I'm sticking with direct translation as this is the route we have so far agreed to take as a group and I'm not running off road yet without a better reason."

OK....I guess...I'm still dubious as to the wisdom of a team without a single runner but if thats the way the translation goes...

"As for the concept of HMP being cool ... look at the roster on my site .. one of the Kicker has Kick, Sure Hands, and HMP ... Sure Hands is an great Kicker type skill for a Rugby type punter and HMP is a great simulation of punting. So this element was included on the roster, just not with the player you were thinking."

I wanted to throw in the element of surprise with a player who would never be expected to get a skill like that. Another alternative would be to give him the Bazooka secret weapon....I'm uncertain as to how official that is at the moment though.

Like I said I'll double check my ST 4 vs Guard logic and some of your skill choices and try to update the site later.