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 Post subject: Scrubs roster (new team management mechanics)
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:32 am 
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Originally was posted at Cyanide's forums, just remembered I heard GW staff may read those boards, so who knows, may be it will spring some ideas for them :) I'm adapting it to BB2016/DZ1&2, of course.
Also I hoped for some criticism from true BB veterans hanging around here :)

Here is what I'm trying to address with this idea, first:

1. Appearance of re-drafting adds additional needs to constantly prepare substitutions for your core positionals so you would have another experienced one when the current star will start to cost you too much due to constant urge to retire. But it may be a bit hard to prepare those substitutions as this means that at some point you may need to, say, fire one of your developed wardancers and hire a rookie one, thus suddenly and irrevocably dropping your team effectiveness until the rookie will see some "level-ups". Will be even harder to achieve for positionals which are usually fielded as a single player, like throwers, or big guys.

2. Under new rules team's cash is now limited severely with EM, making it hard for some squishy teams to gather a good stash of money in advance, to be able to recover from some unlucky disastrous matches they often have.

3. BB is supposed to be a fantasy football team management game, but this aspect still leaves a lot to be desired. Now seeing those neat ideas in DZ1&2, regarding offseason/re-drafting and home/own stadiums, it's clear that GW intends to expand this part of game. My idea adds to this part as well.

4. There are certain positionals in some teams which rarely see fielding, because they are only situationally useful. Like, Assassins in Dark Elves roster, or some Big Guys. They are often not used at all by many coaches as they may only be useful in certain matches, while bloat TV in all of them, unless you fire them right after that (waste of money, SPPs and can't develop them this way). That's just a waste of good game material, and should be somehow addressed.


Now the idea itself:

Each team gets new short support roster for its scrub players (1-3 players long). Players put there stop being counted towards its TV (while still preserving all their SPPs; injuries do work the same way as for players in the main roster there), and cannot be fielded after match is started; they also don't get MVPs. Thus you can now easily have said Assassin which you only need in your matches against elves and stunties, and keep him in scrubs for the rest of your matches (so at least it start being fielded from time to time); or you could have this goblin with DP which most of Orcs teams usually don't use, and keep him in scrubs till some very special match where you may need him finally. Thus all those interesting guys may actually see some fielding, after all, bumping up variety a bit.

Or you could buy certain positionals in advance with spare money, and put them there (thus it addresses mentioned issue with squishy teams, they now can prepare spare players in advance, without bloating their TV). In such case you should be allowed to keep more positionals of certain type than you are usually allowed by your team's roster (of course, you still can't field more than that).

So, for example, you could have 2 active Wardancers in your Wood Elves team, and one extra you bought after some time and put into scrubs. So you can sometimes field him instead of one of those active dancers, allowing him to earn some SPPs - thus preparing a substitution for your main dancers, as they will retire one day (or meet sudden demise). As you can rotate him back into scrubs after that, your team doesn't see sudden drop in effectiveness, you can control it and adjust it according to what opponent you'll face next.

One additional interesting benefit of scrubs roster is that it will allow to put some of your valuable players in there if you think there will be too much risk of them getting injuries in the upcoming match, substituting them with rookies, for example. So adds additional freedom for team management part of the game.

A final note: as now teams, generally, become bigger (due to the fact coaches start to keep 1-3 additional players in scrubs roster constantly), the re-drafting rules may need some tweaking as well, so coaches would get a bit more money, so they would be able to pay that additional upkeep.

Edit:
It's still an open question whether or not players mostly spending their time in scrubs roster should have their number of seasons devised the same way as active players do. After all, they don't see that much carnage as the latter do :) I believe the whole retirement thing deals not with their biological age, but more with amount of physical and psychological traumas accumulated in a harsh world of BB :) Though it would make calculations harder, there could be some threshold for participated matches set, which, unless exceeded, would make them "age", say, 2 times slower.

For example, in case of 25% threshold and 20 matches played by the team in this season, if some of the scrubs played in just 5 or less of those matches, then this season is counted as 1/2 of a season in terms of re-drafting mechanics, for them (rounding down). They still need to have their number of seasons increased steadily, as otherwise the feature will be abused by putting some of your developed star players into scrubs to slow down their "seasons played" counter and only take them out on some rare occasions in important matches. To combat it even more, the "1/2 rule" could only be applied to fairly inexperienced players in scrubs, like, until they reach lv4 or lv5.

Edit2:
In addition to said above, to reduce number of calculations and facilitate preparations of substitutions for your key players, unless the said threshold is reached, "seasons played" counter may not be increased at all for scrub players below lv2 or lv3.


Last edited by Mori-mori on Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:15 pm, edited 14 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scrubs roster
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:47 am 
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And here are some optional additional rules which are designed to put more pressure on the coach, give him incentive to constantly rotate his players and field his scrubs from time to time at least (thus further boosting team management experience):

1. If players in scrub roster don't see fielding for a lot of consecutive matches (5, 10, 15?), they become very upset and ask for their share of winnings, as they probably don't get that much money being a mere scrubs (not to say fame!), but still must pay their bills. In this case coach must pay the whole their current cost again, as if he would need to hire them (base price + all skills and stat-ups they earned so far; additional costs due to urge to retire, as per re-drafting rules, may also be applied here). If he can't or doesn't wish to do this, players leave the team.

2. If a player don't see fielding for a lot of consecutive matches (5, 10, 15?), he gets marked as "about to become out of fit". If he is still not fielded in the next match after it happened, he enters 1st "out of fit" stage. Initial effect should be just -MA or -AV, or both (stage1). If he is still not fielded at next match after that, he enters stage2 and effects get more severe (up to -AG, -ST, more -MA and -AV etc; all effects are cumulative), and so on. Some table could be devised listing fixed effects, for simplicity, 5 stages will do. To get back into form, he needs to actually play a number of consecutive matches equal to the current number of "out of fit" stage (so, up to 5 matches). At the end of each match some of negative effects are lifted of him as he "moves" through stages in reverse order. Additional limitation could be applied here so that only matches which were completed to the end, or properly conceded (i.e. when unable to field more than 2 players at some time) only would be counted towards it; unjustified concedes shouldn't help to regain fitness. If player is rotated back to scrubs midway while restoring his fitness, then next match the team plays doesn't change his state in any way, but if he is still left in scrubs in the match next after that, he is thrown back one "out of fit" stage and will continue to deteriorate each match from now on, as described above (up to stage5).

I especially like the 2nd one. They also could be combined together, if needed (though may be too much pressure already).

Edit:

And here comes the table:

Code:
+----------------------------+--------------+
| Stage                      | Effects      |
+----------------------------+--------------+
| About to become out of fit | none         |
+----------------------------+--------------+
| Out of fit, stage 1        | -MA          |
+----------------------------+--------------+
| Out of fit, stage 2        | -AV          |
+----------------------------+--------------+
| Out of fit, stage 3        | -AG          |
+----------------------------+--------------+
| Out of fit, stage 4        | -ST          |
+----------------------------+--------------+
| Out of fit, stage 5        | -MA && -AV   |
+----------------------------+--------------+


As mentioned, all effects are cumulative (they stack up). After lifting "stage 1" off himself, the player can become completely fit right away, or just reach "about to become out of fit" state again (as he moves through the table in reverse order, and starts from this state). Thus, if needed, he could be forced to play one more extra match to be properly restored and be able to sit in scrubs roster for a while again, as additional limitation, if current rules will seem too "soft" by a Commissioner.

An optional, a bit less straightforward table:

Code:
+----------------------------+-----------------+
| Stage                      | Effects         |
+----------------------------+-----------------+
| About to become out of fit | none            |
+----------------------------+-----------------+
| Out of fit, stage 1        | -MA             |
+----------------------------+-----------------+
| Out of fit, stage 2        | -AV             |
+----------------------------+-----------------+
| Out of fit, stage 3        | -AG or -ST (*)  |
+----------------------------+-----------------+
| Out of fit, stage 4        | -AG or -ST (**) |
+----------------------------+-----------------+
| Out of fit, stage 5        | -MA && -AV      |
+----------------------------+-----------------+


(*) On stage 3 choice is done by checking direct skill group access for a player; if he has Strength or General access, but doesn't have Agility or Passing, then it's -ST, and vice versa; if he has access to both "families" (any of S+G and any of A+P), choose by rolling D6
(**) On stage 4 you apply effect the opposite to what was chosen on stage 3; thus, if it was -ST, now it will be -AG, and vice versa, no further considerations (or, optionally, it could be decided exactly as it's done at stage 3, thus further decreasing the same stat; or both could be decided by simply rolling D6 all the time)

Edit2:
In case player reaches end of season while in the "out of fit" stage, he "takes it with him" to the new season at least unchanged. I still believe his "out of fit" stage should be made worse at least by 1, as he surely won't make it better while staying away from the pitch.

A more "natural" effect from off-season/downtime would be devising some modifier proportional to the duration of this period which is then added to the number of "matches-not-fielded-in" counter to those considered the most scrubby scrubs. At the start of new season, any non-fresh (not just bought) player you will place in scrubs roster for your first match in it gets his counter of missed matches increased by this modifier. In case the total number exceeds the limit past which "out of fit" effects kick in, they are applied right away. This is used to indicate you just don't invest much resources into maintaining his form atm, neglecting him.

So, for example, if "out of fit" limit is 10, and off-season modifier is 5, if at the end of a season your spare Big Guy in scrubs had 7 consecutively missed matches, then at the start of the next season, if you decide to not put him in main roster for the 1st match in it, his missed matches counter will become 12 (7+5). As at 10 he would have become already "about to become out of fit", that means that at 12 he is already "out of fit, stage 2", and loses 1MA and 1AV until he'll recover from it. Additionally, as he doesn't participate in the upcoming match, when it will end, he'll transition to stage 3, losing either 1AG or 1ST. If you still decide to rotate him into the main roster for the 1st game, it counts as if you've been organizing some special training sessions for him during downtime, preparing him for this 1st match specifically, thus his state doesn't become worse. Yet, as off-season training cannot be compared to the real thing, it doesn't reset his previous "missed matches" counter until the real match ends, and it doesn't revert his "out of fit" states, if he'd already had some at the end of previous season. It just prevents things getting worse for him.

That serves as additional strong incentive to constantly track and rotate your roster, as a team's manager.


Last edited by Mori-mori on Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:51 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scrubs roster
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:41 am 
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Ok, have done a bit of ninja edits, sorry if somebody has already read it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Scrubs roster
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:39 am 
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OK, I have some feedback for you.

I play and have been playing for a few years something a bit similar. However, I'm not sure how it'd work with the new out of game rules, as I have no intention of implementing them. I play an LRB 4/crp/house rules cross.

The mechanic I use is a 'reserves roster'. The reserves roster does not count towards TV, and can have up to 4 fit players and also has 'injured' players. In mine game MNG is between 1-3 games (they are taken from the main roster and put in the reserves roster) and perms have a 50/50 chance of being healed and if healed are out between 3-8 games.

My intention is to build mega teams and I use the LRB4 winnings/FF structure (ish) not Spiralling Expenses.

The one thing I can say, is that using a 'reserves roster' really benefits Elves. There are 10 teams in my top division and 8 of them are (or include a large amount of) Elves. This is ok for me, but I think your system would also benefit expensive squishy teams much more than say Undead. I know my system is definitely not balanced, and I would guess yours would be as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Scrubs roster
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback, @harvestmouse, really interesting input. I didn't hope to be lucky to get access to some statistics data like that.

I'm still not sure how can it be gauged if it's just "a bit similar", and also "LRB 4/crp/house rules cross" thing makes me doubt those results may be used "as is" in this case. Also, your healing rate is quite high, imo. Under BB2016/DZ1&2 we have only 50+% chance of healing of Niggling Injuries at the end of a season, all other injuries cannot be removed. So that healing in your system may be one of those additional factors empowering squishy teams, as they suffer from attrition due to injuries more than others, in general.

If you could provide a more detailed depiction of the process how exactly elves are pushing everybody from their way to the top using these mechanics in your league, we probably could discern what exactly helps them, and whether or not my system here contains the same flaw. Then it probably could be patched (or may be not). Do you think you could pinpoint it?

Edit:
And in the light of re-drafting rule in new ruleset, balance is seriously shifted as well, though I'm lack enough expertise to say which way it was shifted atm. The only thing that is apparent is that it will prevent coaches from creating and/or maintaining for a while "dream teams" consisting of overdeveloped players with bunch of SPPs. As elves/stunties always have had issues with doing something like that due to huge attrition they face anyway, imo, it should limit bashy teams more, though. Yet can't be sure here, it actually may round up things instead, enriching the experience as well, as BB mechanics tend to break and gameplay variety tends to decrease at extreme TVs.


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 Post subject: Re: Scrubs roster (new team management mechanics)
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:55 pm 
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A bunch of more ninja edits. I think I'm done for now ))


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 Post subject: Re: Scrubs roster (new team management mechanics)
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:04 pm 
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There's so much I could say here, but it would be difficult to be concise and/or easy to follow.

Well my point is (and elves haven't changed) is that a reserve bench of any sort, seriously benefits light expensive players. E.G. elves. No matter what rule set you use from 3rd ed onward.

Also looking at your join date I am unsure of how much experience you have. I mean if you're house ruling why not mix and match? For me LRB4 played the best for progressive teams, there were some bad points that were addressed, but I think a lot was lost from this ruleset to LRB5. Probably it was a little less bloody that the current rules, but not that much in it; maybe none with the removal of PO.


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 Post subject: Re: Scrubs roster (new team management mechanics)
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:38 pm 
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My experience is limited to LRB6/CRP, unfortunately. Trying it out on tabletop is an option, of course, it's just I'm not that often visit places where it's available :) I started as PC BB player, and mostly remain as such.

That's true that longer bench compensates for squishiness of squishy teams, somewhat. Though, a couple of points make me still uncertain. Under CRP we don't have any limitations on amount of cash you can have (In the newest rules it's now capped by Expensive Mistakes). Aside from Spiraling Expenses, but this kicks in only at extreme TVs. So elves can save a lot of money in advance, and replenish their losses immediately with rookies if something goes wrong. Yet, we can't say elves are that OP under CRP.

My system differs from this situation mainly in that in case of said disaster they can substitute deceased players with already experienced players from scrubs they trained in advance just for this case (note, that they can't just field them suddenly out of scrubs roster during the match, they must first transition them to main roster before match, thus they start counted towards their TV). So what it adds is that they can manipulate their TV, bloating and shrinking it at whim, while not losing their experienced players (as they can do it without preserving SPPs under CRP anyway - hire player then fire him after the match). Yet, they still need to field those players to several matches for them to become experienced, in the first place - so it has downside as they keep part of their SPPs in scrub roster as a dead weight in most matches. And the scrub roster is fairly limited in size (up to 3 players are ok, I guess), as well.

Is it really enough to shift balance that much? Can it be that injury healing you also have in your league may add significantly to the elves' domination?


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 Post subject: Re: Scrubs roster (new team management mechanics)
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:27 am 
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Mori-mori wrote:
That's true that longer bench compensates for squishiness of squishy teams, somewhat. Though, a couple of points make me still uncertain.


It's not just squishiness, it's expensive squishiness. This of course is elves to a T. For me I like it, it works for me. As a standard game mechanic, I think it's a no.

The other point would be when teams need to be TV specific. You could use the bench to play the TV game, which isn't right.


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