How I would change the block dice.

[MattDakka]

I would like to try this idea/house rule.
Instead of a Block die, a d12 is rolled whenever a Block is performed, (rules for assists and comparing players' strengths in order to decide how many Block dice are rolled are unchanged):

1: Attacker Pow (the attacker is pushed back and knocked down, opposing coach chooses the destination square)

2: Attacker push/pow: (the attacker is pushed back and knocked down, if he has the Dodge skill he will be just pushed back; if the Defender has Tackle, then Dodge won't work)

3: Attacker Down (knocked down on the spot, as usual, Block/Wrestle don't prevent the knock down)

4: Attacker pushed back

5: Both pushed back

6: Both down (Player/s with Wrestle/Block are not knocked down, as usual)

7: Both push/pow (both players are pushed back and knocked down, unless they have the Dodge skill, in that case the Dodge player/s will treat this result as a push back, Tackle negates Dodge)

8: Both pow (both players are pushed back and knocked down, each coach decides the destination square of the opponent's player)

9: Defender pushed back

10: Defender down (knocked down in the square he currently occupies, Wrestle/Block don't prevent the knock down)

11: Defender push/pow (the defender is pushed back and knocked down, if he has the Dodge skill, he will be just pushed back, if the Attacker has Tackle, Dodge won't work, as usual)

12: Defender Pow

[Corvidius]

While I think this is an interesting idea I don't think it helps tactically. I think it increases luck dependance,as well as removing the value of some skills. I also think it unfairly helps fast teams.

Thats my tuppence worth anyway.

[MattDakka]

While I think this is an interesting idea I don't think it helps tactically. I think it increases luck dependance,as well as removing the value of some skills. I also think it unfairly helps fast teams.

Thats my tuppence worth anyway.

It's more luck dependant at TV 1000, but less luck dependant at a higher TV, once you get Block/Dodge and/or Tackle luck is not so relevant anymore.
I played against many Dwarf coaches who -2dice blocked Mummies and Tomb Guardians with impunity,
because the d6 block system makes that quite reliable.
Fast teams are less used than basher ones, so I don't see that as a flaw.

[Corvidius]

Fast teams are less used than basher ones, so I don't see that as a flaw.

I think that statement is quite TV dependent as well though. Fast, low AV teams operate best at lower TVs than bash teams.

Your idea is interesting because it mixes thing up a bit but I think it shifts the balance too far. It also has a massive amount of skill interactions: Multiple Block, Frenzy, Fend, Sidestep, Grab, Stand Firm, Ball and Chain, Jump Up, Diving Tackle, Shadowing, Tentacles, Prehensile Tail, Piling On and probably some others that my brain is too tired to figure out just now. Sure, some of those are situational but I think when a house rule interacts with that many skills it is less a House Rule and more a new game system (which is fair enough).

To be fair, I'd probably give a game using those rules a go but I think my brain reacts less favourably when something is a change rather than an addition. New things are cool, changing existing good things isn't for my brain. It's an odd instinct thing.

[Chris]

Biggest problem it assumes both sides going at it - I prefer the current one of the attacker blocking in so only the defender can fly backwards

[MattDakka]

Biggest problem it assumes both sides going at it - I prefer the current one of the attacker blocking in so only the defender can fly backwards

The problem with that is poor coaches can 1 die block without being punished.
I can't count how many times I've been 1-die blocked by Dwarf noob coaches, in situations where a 2 dice block was viable.

[MattDakka]

Fast teams are less used than basher ones, so I don't see that as a flaw.

I think that statement is quite TV dependent as well though. Fast, low AV teams operate best at lower TVs than bash teams.

Your idea is interesting because it mixes thing up a bit but I think it shifts the balance too far. It also has a massive amount of skill interactions: Multiple Block, Frenzy, Fend, Sidestep, Grab, Stand Firm, Ball and Chain, Jump Up, Diving Tackle, Shadowing, Tentacles, Prehensile Tail, Piling On and probably some others that my brain is too tired to figure out just now. Sure, some of those are situational but I think when a house rule interacts with that many skills it is less a House Rule and more a new game system (which is fair enough).

To be fair, I'd probably give a game using those rules a go but I think my brain reacts less favourably when something is a change rather than an addition. New things are cool, changing existing good things isn't for my brain. It's an odd instinct thing.

Fair enough, I appreciate your feedback anyway.

[dode74]

Fast teams are less used than basher ones, so I don't see that as a flaw.

That doesn't make them worse teams though, just less popular.

My main issue is the skill interactions. I've not compared the probabilities with various skill combinations, but it could get very complex very quickly. There are aspects which I think I like (attacker can be pushed back) but I'm not sure.

[MattDakka]

Fast teams are less used than basher ones, so I don't see that as a flaw.

That doesn't make them worse teams though, just less popular.

My main issue is the skill interactions. I've not compared the probabilities with various skill combinations, but it could get very complex very quickly. There are aspects which I think I like (attacker can be pushed back) but I'm not sure.

Skill interactions could be worked out, I don't think it's hard.
Honestly, I was expecting a flame, so I'm happy for the feedback, so far.

[Kort]

Some remarks:

1) The outcome is unbiased, instead of being biased in favor of the attacker with the usual block die.
2) The usefulness of Dodge is slightly increased (3 outcomes out of 12, so 1/4 instead of 1/6).
3) What about Block/Wrestle ? Do they only work on Both Down or any Down (not Pow) result ?

1) is fine but changes the balance of the game somewhat. 2) is not great, Dodge is already too good. 3) requires some clarifications.

I am afraid the change couls help Elves a bit too much, by weakening blocking and making Dodge a bit more useful.

[MattDakka]

Some remarks:

1) The outcome is unbiased, instead of being biased in favor of the attacker with the usual block die.
2) The usefulness of Dodge is slightly increased (3 outcomes out of 12, so 1/4 instead of 1/6).
3) What about Block/Wrestle ? Do they only work on Both Down or any Down (not Pow) result ?

1) is fine but changes the balance of the game somewhat. 2) is not great, Dodge is already too good. 3) requires some clarifications.

I am afraid the change couls help Elves a bit too much, by weakening blocking and making Dodge a bit more useful.

1) That's a desired effect, because I never found very logical/realistic that the attacker could be just knocked down on the spot, and never pushed back, more possible outcomes *should* improve the tactical aspect of blocking; please notice, it's a speculation based on my feelings, take it with a pinch of salt and as an academic debate;
The outcome is unbiased because the attacker's edge lies in the fact that he can bring assists in position and choose who and where to block, it's up to the attacker's coach to set up advantageous blocks through assists, skills and positioning and create his edge;
2) Yes, that's might be a problem at TV 1000, but once you get 2 Tacklers, things *should* be fine;
3) Wrestle/Block work on Both Down only. Attacker Down is the Skull result: since Block/Wrestle don't work with that result, I don't think they should work with Attacker Down and Defender Down on my table (because Defender Down is just like a "reverse" Attacker down, aka Skull, result).
Forgive me if my explanations are poor, I hope they are clear enough.

[Kort]

3) Wrestle/Block work on Both Down only. Attacker Down is the Skull result: since Block/Wrestle don't work with that result, I don't think they should work with Attacker Down and Defender Down on my table (because Defender Down is just like a "reverse" Attacker down, aka Skull, result).

Then, if I understand correctly, it is a massive nerf on Block and Wrestle, since those would only work on 1 outcome out of 12 (instead of the usual 1/6).

[MattDakka]

3) Wrestle/Block work on Both Down only. Attacker Down is the Skull result: since Block/Wrestle don't work with that result, I don't think they should work with Attacker Down and Defender Down on my table (because Defender Down is just like a "reverse" Attacker down, aka Skull, result).

Then, if I understand correctly, it is a massive nerf on Block and Wrestle, since those would only work on 1 outcome out of 12 (instead of the usual 1/6).

You got it right.
Yes, it's a great nerf, indeed.

[Kort]

I am not sure I like it. Teams such as Norse become almost unplayable. Elves and Amazons become a bit too good.

I am also a bit concerned that Push Back is not as common as before. Utilizing Push-Backs for improving one's position is an interesting challenge in Blood Bowl.

[MattDakka]

I am not sure I like it. Teams such as Norse become almost unplayable. Elves and Amazons become a bit too good.

I am also a bit concerned that Push Back is not as common as before. Utilizing Push-Backs for improving one's position is an interesting challenge in Blood Bowl.

I don't think Norse would become unplayable, 1/3 of the possible results is a defender knock down, since they have Block.
Notice that even "Attacker pushed back" and "Both pushed back" results can be advantageous for Norse, because they don't like to stand in opponent players' tackle zones after they have blocked.
Tackle should counter Dodge quite well. In my table 1/6 of the results are a pow anyway (defender down and defender pow).