The Snakemen (I finally got around to changing the name)

Got a great idea and/or proposal for BloodBowl?

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Stab or Hypnotic Gaze

Stab
0
No votes
Hypnotic Gaze
4
67%
Both Stab and Hypnotic Gaze
1
17%
Neither
1
17%
 
Total votes: 6

legowarrior
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The Snakemen (I finally got around to changing the name)

Post by legowarrior »

Nagas,with lower half of a snake and the upper half of a snake like human or elf, aren't found often on land, and have only recently enter in to the game of Bloodbowl, if only to show their superiority over the lesser races of man, dwarf and elf. There snakelike body makes movements on land difficult, but they still retain the agility of a snake. They're magical nature makes them prone to mutation, although this rarely happens, except the cultists, Naga's dedicated to the winds and powers of magic.


New Poll. I'm looking for people to select which direction they'd like the team to go, as I try to refine it. Also, I've added a few other things to the poll, and I'd like to answer those as well. As always, the poll is no substitute for comments, so please let your views be heard.

A - Garion's Favorite (for now that is).
0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, GA/SPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GAP/SM
0–2 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-2 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GA/SPM
0-2 – 100k – Cultist 5 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze, GAM/SP
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

B - No Cultists, 4 catchers and Strength Access
0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, G/ASPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GP/ASM
0–4 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-2 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GS/APM
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

C - No Cultists, 4 Blitzers and Agility on everyone
0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, GA/SPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GAP/SM
0–2 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-4 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GA/SPM
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k






Old Versions

0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, G/ASPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GP/ASM
0–2 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-2 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GA/SPM
0-2 – 100k – Cultist 5 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze, GM/ASP
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

Most of the positions are self explanatory. The Abomination are giant Nagas, larger than the rest, and are in many ways, just wild animals. Cultists are the rare Naga that has been touched more by the winds of magic then others of their kind. They have the ability to put others under a spell, but are themselves easily hurt. There Blitzers specialize in coiling their bodies around the opponents, and knocking them down. Although slow, the Catchers are faster Naga on land.



Design Decisions
Although the guide lines say nothing about agile players with lower than 6 movement, I've decided to that 5 movement reduces the cost of a player by 10k and 4 movement reduces the cost of a player by 30k. A slow moving agile player does not benefit nearly as much from the faster movement as a 6 or 7 movement agile player. On that same note, I've costed the ability of Hypnotic Gaze to 30k, although this might be on the low end. I might push it up to 40k or 50k, and give the Cultists decay, to show there inherit vulnerability to hits.

Finally, unlike other Agility Players, I have not given them Agility access on normal rolls. This is because I find that Agility has a lot to do with both speed and agility itself (Sure Feet, Sprint, Leap, and the rest) and slow players might not be better at many of the functions, but this is also to balance the fact that the blitzers get Strength Access, and all the players can get mutations on doubles.


Player Levels.
For the Lineswomen, I would take Block over Wrestle, simple because being on the ground means not being able to use Prehensile Tail. The catchers need dodge, side step, and all the usually skills, while the Blitzers might enjoy Guard or Mighty Blow. The only skill I would try to get for the Blitzers whenever possible is Jump Up ASAP, simple because they lose more than most players being on the floor. Again, Prehensile Tail and Guard work best when you are standing up.

Anyway, if the storm doesn't knock my power up, I'll try to respond to criticism. I'm always eager for suggestions and a critique, although please explain any comments so that I might take them into account. Comments like "LOL OVERPOWERED" aren't really as helpfully as all that really, they reflect more upon the writer of the comment than on me or my work.

Edit October 29, 2012
I reduced the price of many of the players. I might increase the cost of the Cultists though, since HG is an awesomely powerful ability.

Edit November 6, 2012.
Replaced Strength Access with Agility access on the Blitzers. Now they can get dodge and Jump Up.

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Re: The Naga

Post by Loki »

You've put them as Ag3; from the text I assume you meant to put Ag4 ?

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Re: The Naga

Post by legowarrior »

Yes I did. Thanks for the heads up.

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Re: The Naga

Post by Joemanji »

Hi,

Interesting team. Definitely unlike anything we currently have. A few pricing points :

Thrower should be 70K. Pass is a 1 point skill (especially on a MA4 player).
Catcher should be 80K at most. Both PreTail and Catch are one point skills, and there is no way this guy is better than a Gutter Runner or equivalent to a HE Catcher.
Cultist also looks overpowered. By the formula he should be 5 (-1 -2 +2 +1 (PT) +3 HG) = 80K.
Again, Blitzers overpriced. By formula should be 80K.

I'm not sure I like the idea of Mutations here. It's just a route to Clawpomb elves (albeit slow ones).

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Re: The Naga

Post by Darkson »

I know there used to be a Snakeman race in WFB, not sure if they were ever called Naga or not.
I'd say remove mutations from all bar the Cultists (and maybe only give it to them on a double).

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Re: The Naga

Post by legowarrior »

Thanks for the feed back. Maybe I should have called them Lamia instead (like nagas, but from Greek Mythology, and all of them are women).

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I think Pass and Catch are 1 point skills on Agility 3 players, but I can see why a discount would be practical, considering the slow speed. I don't get how the blitzer is overcost though. I'll make an alternative with those positions less costly.

On to the other point. Is mutation really all that powerful on doubles? Many don't have Agility on Doubles, so you have make some tough choices on doubles. If it is, I'll remove it, but you don't see many agility players with Mutation access (although that might be because of the power).

Finally, no one made a big deal about hypnotic gaze. I thought for sure that would be a sore spot with people.

Thanks for the feed back.

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Re: The Naga

Post by the.tok »

Hi

I really like the idea of a Naga team, really something different and interesting! I have a hard time evaluating the power of mass PT, so I want to see it in action. Seems quite balanced at first glance

That said, I don't see which fluff you rely on, cause to me nagas are supposed to have 4 arms, so extra arms would make more sense that AG4 IMO (I have to say I rely on Might and Magic universe when I hear Naga :wink: )

Would be weaker though.

I like the Idea of low-MA high-AG players, but 4 MA is really low and Nagas are not that slow right?

Last note, I think you have too many positionals. The thrower (merged with catcher for a runner?) and the big guy may be cut

Just my 2cents :)

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Re: The Naga

Post by Joemanji »

legowarrior wrote:I don't get how the blitzer is overcost though.
Two ways to explain it.

By the formula he is 50K :

less 10K for Movement 5,
plus 20K for Agility 4,
plus 10K for Prehensile Tail,
plus 20K for Wrestle.

Comes out at 90K (my mistake).

Skill access does not feature in initial player cost.

Alternatively compare him to High or Dark Elf Blitzers :

7 3 4 8 Block for 100K
5 3 4 8 Wrestle, Prehensile Tail for 100K

Block for Wrestle / PT is a straight comparison by points (although Block is still the better deal). Then you have one player with +2 MA over the other despite them costing the same. This is why I suggested 80K.

Prehensile Tail is a strange skill en masse in that in certain games it is going to be very effective. But mostly people will just pound on your ST3, AV 7/8 team and not need to dodge. Looking at your roster it is clear that the Naga team will be dodging more than their opponents. PT might seem amazing vs other elves, but actually they'll just block you away most likely. So you have to be careful here not to overprice, because the team will be carrying >100K of TV in just that one skill. Against Orcs/Khemri/Nurgle/Chaos etc that will be TV given away for very little benefit.

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Re: The Naga

Post by legowarrior »

I was using the pricing from this thread. http://forum.bloodbowl-game.com/viewtop ... =457#p3824

Still, you make a good case for why PT should only be 1 point. I will make that change, and reduce the cost of the non lineswomen by 10k. Still not sure by M access making a huge deal. It does replace the Elves usually A access.

But I'm glad for all the feedback.

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Re: The Naga

Post by garion »

Darkson wrote:I know there used to be a Snakeman race in WFB, not sure if they were ever called Naga or not.
I'd say remove mutations from all bar the Cultists (and maybe only give it to them on a double).
Nope, no Naga. They were called Chaos Snakemen

http://www.solegends.com/citcat88/0215rocsnakecdwm.jpg

to big to show here, but here is the link. Why doesn't this site auto resize???

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Re: The Naga

Post by legowarrior »

Strengths and Weakness


Strengths

Agility 4 on all the players means that you have good odds on all your ball handling skills, whether it is picking up the ball, throwing or catching. Any player could take the ball over the goal line for a touch down.

Prehensile tail on everyone means a good shot at locking down both stunty teams, elves and amazons. It'll also cause a nightmare for teams that try to dodge into cages. It might even tie down powerful units with break tackle.

Mutation Access is available on doubles, giving you a diverse selection of skills if you get doubles, and on the Cultists, they get it on normal roles. Things like two heads, claw and foul appearance are in your reach.

Hypnotic Gaze is not a widely available skill, and is based on the agility stat which you have in abundance. This makes knocking out corners a lot less risky, and the ability to 'blitz' more than once.

Strength Access on Blitzers. Something no other Agility 4 player has.

Weakness
Low Speed means that you have a tough time taking advantage of your 4 agility on the players. You'll have to plan your moves in advance, if you don't want to get caught out one or two spaces away from the target. Also, it means taking the opponents movement into account because many will easily outrun you, if you don't lock them down with Prehensile Tail.

Wrestle and Prehensile Tail is not a perfect fit, since being on the floor shuts that ability down. Also, common skills like Guard are less useful with wrestle, and the low movement means that being on the ground has a much more stark effect on your team.

High Agility doesn't mean Agility access, unlike other races, so basic skills like dodge might be out of reach.

Cultists are weak so Hypnotic Gaze is a risk to use. She will get knocked down the next turn.

Low speed. It should be said again.

Prehensile Tail is of no use against dwarfs or Zombies or Slann, or at least of limited use.

To get the most of PT you should be next to the opponent, but to survive, you should be a space away. Something to keep in mind.

I hope this helps. I'd love to hear more about how people would suggest skill the players up and how to use them. I find that since I designed the team, I have a fair bit of tunnel vision in how to play them.

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Re: The Naga

Post by garion »

just realised they are all ag4???

This team will be auto win in the hands of any capable coach.

Ag 4 teams are awesome because they are so good at swamping cages, I get this will be a little harder because of their sucky movement, but all that Prehensile tail coupled with Hynpo gaze and a potential CPOMB big guy makes this team incredibly powerful.

They all have to be av7 to make this team viable, av8 players on this team makes them able to take hits, which means locking teams down with PT isnt much of a worry early on in the teams development.

Oh just realised your blitzers have M access on doubles too, this needs to be got rid of or S access on the blitzers does. One or the other. Or ag4 needs to be knocked down to 3, though the team will then be pretty weak.

If you made all the players av7 and RRs 70k it may be okay, but you should certainly prevent CPOMB being so easily obtainable for the blitzers. all ag4 and cpomb means you win imo.

The team has potential but its not quite there yet.

Also I'm not sure about the fluff, should snakemen be ag4? shouldn't they be a St race instead? Also I'm not sure if they should be slow either really. Unfortunately i can't find anything about the snakemen. I have checked my 3rd ed WFB rule book and armies book and there is nothing about them and I have checked Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness and I cant find anything about snakemen in them either, so all i can think is they either had rules in a white dwarf at some point or they are beastmen or chaos thugs with a shed load of mutations. But I cba to read through all the mutationts right now to work out what they are. In Lost and Damned Tzeentch have a lot of serpent iconography so it could be them. Though the models look more khorne like to me. They could also be Slaanesh though because prehensile tail is so synonymous with them. So ii', pretty stuck atm :blue:

I'm sure Spubbbba will remember if he is about?

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Re: The Naga

Post by legowarrior »

You've given me a lot to think about and this is exactly the kind of feed back I was looking for. Still, I really hate to give up Mutation access.


As to the Naga, I should be instead used the term Lamia. I decided on slow movement for two reasons. 1) It's never been done with agile races, and I'm a big fan of slow and steady. 2) Snakes can move really quickly, but that is because they use the entire body to move. When a large portion of the body of a snake is a human/elf female, you just can't propel yourself all that quickly, while keeping your torso up. Image how fast a cobra could move if it had to keep a head up. It's fastest when the entire body is close to the ground.

The idea of Nagas or Lamia comes not from WFB (which was all know is a different universe from BB, but yet similar, and not, but different, but somehow connected, and than there are daemons) but from mythology and other ideas. Might and Magic, D&D, Warcraft, and other fantasy outlets have had snake like people in the worlds. In most cases, when they weren't super monstrous, they were describe as agile or dexterous. You might argue that they have snake like traits, in there ability to strike hard, like a cobra. That is what I envision for this team. Not monstrous, but slim, intelligence, with quick reflexes (and slow movement, because snake bottoms just aren't as effective as legs). The power to hypnotize their prey, like a cobra mesmerizes small rodents before they strike. Like the Naga from Warcraft, I wanted a races that was somewhat prone to mutation and changes, although maybe that is a step too far.

One thing I am going to do right now is up the price of the cultist to 100. Cause I can!

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Re: The Naga

Post by Darkson »

@ garion: Games Workshop (Citadel) made Snakemen figures, but I don't really recall ever seeing any rules for them - they weren't in my 2nd ed WFB, which was after the models were made, so I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't just something "cool" that was made in the day when they were all about fun rather than money.

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Re: The Naga

Post by garion »

Darkson wrote:@ garion: Games Workshop (Citadel) made Snakemen figures, but I don't really recall ever seeing any rules for them - they weren't in my 2nd ed WFB, which was after the models were made, so I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't just something "cool" that was made in the day when they were all about fun rather than money.
Yeah I think you are right. They used to make loads of crazy stuff. Like I have this Chaos Toilet still unpainted - Image

and I'm sure there were never rules for this either.

Out of interest do you mean 2nd ed WFB or 3rd ed??? Reason I ask is 3rd ed WFB was the rule book when 2nd ed BB was about. And I thought the models were released between 2nd ed and 3rd wfb? But I could be completely wrong :)

I checked in the 3rd ed rule book (one with the human smashing the 2 headed orc with a hammer) and 3rd ed Armies book 9with orcs and dwarves squaring off on the front). And couldn't find anything in them. And also both the Realms of Chaos books.

@ Lego - I understand you making a naga team, but personally I think sticking to Chaos Snakemen would be better, in my mind the disconnect between BB universe and WFB of 3rd ed is minimal. There is more of a disconnect between the modern WFB, but I think it is generally best to look back at the old 3rd ed WFB stuff for any fluff etc.. as that and 2nd ed wfb were used to create bloodbowl, and it is how most of the teams were made up really.

But there is almost nothing to go off other than the models so you pretty much have a free reign, though I agree with you mutations should be freely available. after all they are a chaos race.

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