The Snakemen (I finally got around to changing the name)

[legowarrior]

Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

I've got no problems with a slight fluff and name change, if it would help create a more blood bowl setting. At this time, I'm more interested in not creating a overpowered team. There are 3 things I really want to keep in this team.

Slow Movement
High Agility
SOME mutation Access


I would prefer to keep them at 8 armor because with out decent armor, they would fail, and fail hard against bash teams. PT is great against stunties and elves, but in order to use it, they have to do something that few agility teams want to do, get up close and personal with the opposition, at least some of the time.

I would enjoy having hypnotic Gaze on the team, but I don't see a real need for it. Actually, I was toying around with putting it on a Agility 2 Big Guy, just because that would be funny.

I think, outside the Cultist (which I'm open to changing or dropping) the biggest threat to you perceive on the team is the blitzer. I see the threat of Mutation and Strength Access on an agility player, but you have to keep in mind, stats wise, this player is subpar. Wrestle also doesn't work that well with Clawpombers, since the use of wrestle stops all armor rolls, and Wrestle also limits the effectiveness of PT. Final, it seems to me, and I might be wrong, is that clawpomb is heavily handicapped by low movement, since you will spend a lot of time on the floor, and with 5 movement, it doesn't give you much of a chance to get back up and strike at someone else.

Still, I'm no great seer when it comes to team development, and I'm grateful for the feedback. I want to make a team that is viable, interesting and wouldn't be too out of place in a tournament or league.

[garion]

I just think the blitzer should GAM access. S on doubles, then they need 2 doubles to get CPOMB rather than 1

[legowarrior]

I'll put up three options for the skills

A - No Changes
0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, G/ASPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GP/ASM
0–2 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-2 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GS/SPM
0-2 – 100k – Cultist 5 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze, GM/ASP
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

B - Exchange S access for A access on Blitzers
0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, G/ASPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GP/ASM
0–2 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-2 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GA/APM
0-2 – 100k – Cultist 5 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze, GM/ASP
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

C - The elf way - everyone gets agility access.
0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, GA/SPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GAP/SM
0–2 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-2 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GA/SPM
0-2 – 100k – Cultist 5 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze, GAM/ASP
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

But, I'm still open to other suggestions beyond this. I'm not sure it's needed though, but so far, we've been busy with Theory Bowl, and I'd love to see someone take this team for a spin, but I'll need to figure out miniatures for this team.

[garion]

b or c to me. B might be a little weak so probably C.

Miniatures, I'm pretty sure reaper do some nice ones.

big guys
http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/naga/latest/02755

and here are a bunch of others - http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/snakeman

[legowarrior]

I'll throw up a post with a few variations, and than I'm open to making changes to fluff. I'll be back.

[legowarrior]

Three Variations. I'm doing the Eye Glass technique, throwing out options to gauge the community, and than making slight changes, to see what happens.

I'll put a new poll in place later in the week.

A - Garion's Favorite (for now that is).
0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, GA/SPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GAP/SM
0–2 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-2 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GA/SPM
0-2 – 100k – Cultist 5 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze, GAM/SP
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

No Cultists, 4 catchers and Strength Access
0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, G/ASPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GP/ASM
0–4 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-2 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GS/APM
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

No Cultists, 4 Blitzers and Agility on everyone
0–16 - 60k - Lineswomen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, GA/SPM
0–2 - 70k – Thrower – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, Pass, GAP/SM
0–2 - 80k – Catcher 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 – Prehensile Tail, Catch, GA/SPM
0-4 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GA/SPM
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

I'll put a poll up, asking for everyone's favorite later on in the week. I'm still seeking comments, advice and recommendations from people. I do try to weigh in on the advice, and see where it leads me.

Thanks again for voting as well. I've got a decent response, and many people seem to like the ideas for the team. I a stated earlier, I'm okay with change the fluff a bit, to make it more warhammery. I want to keep them snakes, and I would love it if they could still female, but I think that last one might be a stretch.

[adhansa]

I would prefer c, i dont like cultist and i dont think 4 catchers will be used by the team for any other reason than as pseudoblitzers. If you want hypnotic gaze, I think you should change wild animal and mighty blow against hypnotic gaze on the abomination, for uniqueness.

[legowarrior]

I finally posted a poll. I hope people will take the time to not only vote, but also make a comments and suggestions.

[Chris]

I wouldn't be happy with mutations, if only because these chaps appear to be a 'stable' race of mutants/chaos creatures. And hypnotic gaze is surely a given with some of the snakes?

Something else to consider - the skill entry used to be at least claws/fangs. So give up mutation but have a positional with big snake fangs. Could be a blitzer with big fangs (claws) and a blocker with hypno gaze

[Afroman]

I wouldn't be happy with mutations, if only because these chaps appear to be a 'stable' race of mutants/chaos creatures. And hypnotic gaze is surely a given with some of the snakes?

Something else to consider - the skill entry used to be at least claws/fangs. So give up mutation but have a positional with big snake fangs. Could be a blitzer with big fangs (claws) and a blocker with hypno gaze

That sounds actually like a great thing.... and very fluffy.

[Shteve0]

I wouldn't be happy with mutations, if only because these chaps appear to be a 'stable' race of mutants/chaos creatures. And hypnotic gaze is surely a given with some of the snakes?

Something else to consider - the skill entry used to be at least claws/fangs. So give up mutation but have a positional with big snake fangs. Could be a blitzer with big fangs (claws) and a blocker with hypno gaze

Stab is better, for me.

[Juriel]

I've always loved nagas as a concept.

I like the idea of a slower AG4 team.
I don't think absolutely everyone, like the linemen, needs to be AG4.
I don't like A access on everything, because that just makes them too similar to regular elves, speed aside.

Mutation access really doesn't fit, or even be necessary.
Too much Prehensile Tail, because its penalty stacks. I hate elves, but come on, not on everyone.

I think Blitzers need to keep S access, because they need an edge with that speed.
I like how Hypnotic Gaze is a thematic fit, but I hate Cultists instead of more snakes.
Could you have No Hands snakes that do the hypnotizing, that's their role? Would really jump out.

Undecided on the big guy, was going to say I don't like it, but that depends how the team itself does in the long run.
I love Stab as a big guy snake idea.

[garion]

Hello, just found an interesting article in white dwarf 86, page 35 -

quote - ".....that the most famous player of all was called Tarsh Surehands. Tarsh had two heads and four arms, features which made him the leading pass receiver in the league. Sadly in a crucial wild card game against the SSSchHit V'gghUYth snakemen team, a missed pass lead to his two heads having a violent arguement, and before anyone could stop him he strangled himself to death!"

doesn't say anything at all about snake men really. But it confirms that they do play bloodbowl, and this also means these are the same Snakemen of chaos I linked earlier in this thread. So draw from that what you will


edit: oh and I have been thinking about the roster and propose these changes -

0–16 - 60k - Snakemen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, G/ASPM
0–2 - 90k – Runners – 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 - Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, GA/PSM
0–2 - 80k – Interference 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze GMA/ASP
0-2 – 90k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Dauntless, Stab,GS/APM
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k


Changed it around a little, not sure about pricing yet, I got rid of the passers and catchers, as I do not see snakemen being very well equiped for that style of play really. So changed the catchers for Runners. I gave them Jump Up which seems to fit fluff wise to me, because when is a snake ever down really? AlsoI dropped it down to 2 instead of 4, because the team only needed 2 linemen before which i personally dont like.

I didnt like the cultist name, but think Hypnotic gaze is a must in the team, so I have changed to name to Interference (you can probably think of something better), but this is the player's role in the team: pass interference by hypno gazing receivers for example, or hypnoing blockers essentially drawing them out of the equation, I also think this player and skill set explains that fluff above a little bit, maybe one of the heads was hypno'd which caused the missed pass etc.... I gave these players mutation access on a single roll as they freaks (even for snakemen). I also gave these A access too, as they are very squishy, and i had reduced your catchers to 2.

Blitzers - i removed wrestle, because i find it a little boring to be honest, and also starting with hypno and wrestle in the same team sounds like too much of a pain to me. I gave them Stab, and Dauntless. Dauntless to represent a snakes ability to take down larger creatures than them self really. While Stab represents the blitzers bite attack. Had some mugglet in the BBRC not removed Fang from the game that would obviously be here instead.

But anyway, ignore all you like, but this is just my take on your roster

[legowarrior]

I really like it. Blitzers with Stab is really of cool, and by not starting with block or dodge, the team is a little weaker out the box, but balanced by having both stab and Hypnotic Gaze. Also, kudos on making it possible to have both. It was suggested that stab be on this team, but I couldn't make it fit, but if you put it on the blitzers, I don't feel like we are crowding the field with too many positionals.

So I do have 2 questions.

1 - I don't get dauntless. With a big guy on the team, dauntless isn't super necessary, and stab doesn't work well with it. On the hand, it is a lower tier skill, and I can definitely understand that. What other skills would the Blitzer work with (I like the idea of side step, but that would be to awesome).

2 - Interference is a terrible name. I'm okay with changing the name of the cultist, but we I don't think interfence is it. It's times like these, where we need to look at the wood elves and Dark Elves, and simple find a cool thematic name over an actual position. Mesmer comes to mind.

Now, I really think I'm going to run with majority of what you proposed though Garion. I hope that isn't a problem, but before I do, I would think that the prices would to change, and the the Runner gains pass access and be allowed up to 4 of them.

0–16 - 60k - Snakemen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, G/ASPM
0–4 - 80k – Runners – 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 - Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, GAP/SM
0–2 - 90k – Mesmer 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze GMA/ASP
0-2 – 100k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Other Skill?, Stab,GS/APM
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

As I see it, the Runners base cost is 50k, +1 for PT and +2 for JU for 80k
Mesmers HG ability is worth at least 30k.
The Blitzers probably 60k base, +1 for PT, +2 for stab +2 for any other skill we put in there, so that is 100K.

PS - Thanks for bringing me out of my slumber Garion. Not a lot was happening with the thread for a while, so I put it aside for the time being. I do appreciate the help. Hopefully I'm not off track with make my changes on top of your changes.

[Hitonagashi]

Why go to 4 runners?

There's no need for it, and the team is meant to be a slow one, not a team where you never field the linos because they are useless...with your roster, you have precisely 2 linemen. Everyone else is positionals. With Jump Up, I think the runners are the most powerful piece here.

It's like saying "if you don't mind, I'll raise the number of Wardancers on a Wood Elf team to 4. They are really cool, and it's a shame you can only field 2 of them".

Garion's roster is a solid tier 1.5-2 roster. Your roster is bordering on tier 0. No handrolled roster should rival the very top rosters for power, because you will get the balancing wrong.