The Snakemen (I finally got around to changing the name)

[legowarrior]

One thing to keep in mind is that although PT will lock down most stunty and elf teams, the Snakemen themselves are quite slow, so getting in position might be very difficult.

It seems that if PT in general is good against more mobile teams, the positionals themselves should be more geared to defending against bashy teams. In that case, having access to claw might not be such as bad thing. Although I would argue as fun as mutations are, if I roll doubles, a 5 or 6 are going to be stats boosts, especially movement. Otherwise, I might take side step or dodge on the blitzers before bothering with claws. Clawpomb might be way too much of an investment on this team. Especially if they don't start with Block.

Lastly, I love the idea of having stab on this team, but does it really help them against bashy teams? Maybe it might be best to give them wrestle and grab? Or maybe Stab and Grab.

[Hitonagashi]

Defending against bashy teams != clawbombing them in the face.

That's my point..with GS access blitzers, with no good starting skills, their only option is to mb/po and hope for a claw double, and that's not a winning strategy. They aren't skaven, they haven't the mobility to pull off what skaven do. It's a plain losing strategy to try and bash...but you haven't left them many options.

Snakemen are slow, but agile. AG 4 means they can each effectively re-position their tail at will every turn. You can't beat that offensively with Elves, as they will force the early score, while the blitzers pound on them.

Tuning them to be worse against elves, and better against bashy teams is hard. You are never going to be able to outbash them, but you won't be able to outposition them, or outball them either, as you are too slow for that. It's a fundamental flaw in slow moving + AG 4, and probably the reason no roster has it.

I've been trying to think of a way to balance this, and I'm honestly not sure you can, without some very core changes to the philosophy of the team.

[Juriel]

True - the only defense against bash teams for Naga seems to be the dodge away one step columns that elves use. Difference being that elves are also twice the speed when they want it.

Hypno opens up holes, but it's not a magical win button. Having played Vamps, even MA6 struggles to get around enough... And Hypno always leaves that player next to someone who will punch them next turn. And that gets Vamps hurt, let alone non-ST4, non-Regen players.

Mutation access: if the team has S access, it'll just get used for ClawPOMB. If the team doesn't have S access, the doubles will just get used for MB and Guard. So it just seems boring. Which is the fault of the mutation skills as they are in the CRP...

[Juriel]

How about replacing some Prehensile Tail with Sidestep?

I think that'd lessen the elf-hate factor while improving their play against bashies, while still being thematic. Snakes are shifty.

Hmm. MA5, Sidestep all over... egads, they're super-snotlings.

[legowarrior]

Yeah, I don't think many people would be happy with mass Side Step. Again, I think PT is mitigated some what by the slow movement, which is a good reason to have only 2 runners. Maybe dauntless would be best on the Blitzers, but I think it might be good to up their armor to 9 at the same time. Make them very buff.

[garion]

another consideration could be giving the linemen Sneaky Git. I know it is the worst skill in the game, but at least the roster would then be offering something else new. Also I think it fits with snakes too, they are always sly and pretty vicious. If not the linemen then a positional.

also thinking about Hitos points, why not make the team -

0-16 Snakemen 4 3 4 8 Prehensile Tail G / ASPM
0-4 Runner 6 3 4 7 Prehensile Tail, Jump Up GA / SPM
0-2 Mesmer 4 3 4 8 Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze GM / ASP
0-2 Blitzers 5 3 4 8 Prehensile Tail, Dauntless, Stab GS / APM

in other words dropping the Big Guy altogether. I don't see any fluff reason why he should be in really. Also I think that would give you space for the 4 runners. I haven't worked out pricing yet and not sure about the blitzers skill set either.

This team would then be able to face bash teams reasonably well imo. with 4 runners you should have the speed required. Though the roster may still be too good against elves, maybe dropping stab would be sensible.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I love how overpowered this team is!

[legowarrior]

I love how overpowered this team is!

I love how vague and useless that comment is. Why don't you add a little more to your statement so that we can benefit from your deep insight?

[Juriel]

I love how overpowered this team is!

There's quite a few different options on offer here.

If you think MA5 team with just Prehensile Tail all around is great, you won't believe how good a basic Chaos team with Tail as first pick is.

[Hitonagashi]

I love how overpowered this team is!

There's quite a few different options on offer here.

If you think MA5 team with just Prehensile Tail all around is great, you won't believe how good a basic Chaos team with Tail as first pick is.

Give them all 2 heads for free too, and yes yes I will believe how good they are....

[garion]

I don't think its that good jimmy. Skaven have cpomb and ag4 plus ridiculous high Ma this is an Ag team without A access. I dunno. it is a really tricky team to judge.

Though maybe you should be the highest Ma5 -

0-16 Snakemen 60,000 4 3 4 8 Prehensile Tail G ASPM
0-4 Runner 80,000 5 3 4 7 Prehensile Tail, Jump Up GA SPM
0-2 Mesmer 80,000 4 3 4 8 Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze GM ASP
0-2 Blitzers 90,000 5 3 4 8 Prehensile Tail, Dauntless, Stab GS APM

[Hitonagashi]

New thought..

0-16 Snakemen 50,000 5 3 3 8 Prehensile Tail G ASPM
0-2 Striker 90,000 6 3 4 7 Prehensile Tail, Stab GA SPM
0-2 Mesmer 70,000 4 3 4 8 Hypnotic Gaze GM ASP
0-4 Blitzers 80,000 5 3 3 8 Prehensile Tail, Block GS APM

I dropped AG across the board, but gave the Snakemen a movement boost.

The problem is, we are trying to jam two unique schticks into this team; first, low MA, high AG, and second; prehensile tail.

I thought what makes this team 'right' is more the Tail than the AG, and while I kept a good mix of AG around, this team is a LOT better against bashers. I also moved towards the Orc/Human model of 4 blitzers with GS and Block. It's still going to be the slowest team in the game, but I think it's much more able to hold it's own with this mix, while giving elves a chance (as the blitzers and linos no longer go everywhere on a 2+).

[garion]

the potential of 4 cpomber is too much imo. I think that roster is too good. 2 blitzers is enough, also I dont like block, I'd rather see another skill. Block is already too common on starting rosters imo.

[legowarrior]

New Poll up. Just a simple question.

And I thought I would throw this up. Basically, the Mesmer is replaced by the Stalker, a slightly faster Snakeman with both Hypnotic Gaze and Stab.

0-16 Snakemen 60,000 4 3 4 8 Prehensile Tail G/ASPM
0-4 Runner 80,000 5 3 4 7 Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, Nerves of Steel GAP/SM
0-2 Blitzers 90,000 4 3 4 9 Prehensile Tail, Wrestle GS/APM
0-2 Stalkers 110,000 5 3 4 8 Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze, Stab GM/ASP

Problem I had with Stab on it's own is that it is very inefficient against high armor teams. That would be fine on an assassin, where you have a lot of other good positional on the team, and you can just take it when you are going up against low armor teams in a league, but when you 'blitzer' has it, then you have few other resources. So, I thought, what would happen if I lump them on the same player? But the Mesmer would be a little expansive for what you get, with both HG and Stab. I knew I wanted it to have 5 movement, but than over half the team would be fast, and that would defeat the purpose of 4 movement players. I decided to morph the mesmer into something a little more deadly, the Stalker, with 5 movement, base level armor, and decided, like the witch elves or dancers, it would be an expansive center piece of the team (like the Abomination originally was going to be). I figured it would be an expansive piece, but with both HG and Stab, I might give the position a discount, since you can't use both at the same time.

The Blitzers had to get nerfed, if they weren't going to be the center of attention, and with other 5 movement positions, they couldn't keep the increased movement. Losing Dauntless and Stab meant they had to go in another direction, and I thought maybe a more defensive player was in order. As with most Blitzers, some kind of stat increase was in order, and to help enforce it's defensive and unique nature I gave the position 8 armor and wrestle. The combination will help them survive many brutal onslaughts, negating the power of block in many cases, but given them a reliable way of putting slow moving bruisers on the floor (and allowing the runner to get by). They are unique in that they have both Strength Access and Armor 9, both unseen on many Agility 4 positions up until this point. The 4 movement will keep them out of most boxes though.

Runners should be cheaper if they have only 5 movement, but I think if they are slow moving, let's give them some pass access, so that they can get rid of the ball if they need to.

This team isn't completed yet, and I'm hoping that other will continue to tinker or give feedback. This is a community project in my mind, and everyone who has an interest will be heard. In the end, I'm not trying to force any one vision, because this team is reliant on acceptance by a others before it will see action. I'm trying to keep it moving forward though.

[Hitonagashi]

Let's do the "make a team" test.

I think you want 12 players here (maybe 13?).

4 linos - 240k
4 runners - 320k
2 blitzers - 180k
2 stalkers - 220k
960k
+ 3 RRs (60k? same as Dark Elves would fit the team) = + 180k
+ 9 FF (you were planning to win with the team..) = 1230k

First glance, this looks reasonable. You can't afford all the positionals out of the box, and even at a tabletop tournament, where you typically get 1.1M, you can then just field anything.

Now, let's take the above team and skill it up a little:
4 linos - Do these guys need skills? I think wrestle would be nice, but I don't know if it's 'tv efficient' enough. Let's go with 2 wrestlers, a kicker, and a DP.
4 runners - Blodge is a must. Due to the high player cost, you'll want one leader bunny (and I suspect that this will be the only time that P access is used in serious play). I think these also make ideal ball strippers, with their skill accesses. I'm going for 1 block/dodge/leader, 1 wrestle/dodge/strip ball, 1 block/dodge/sure hands and one block/dodge/sidestep. Pricy, but..these are the core of the team still.
2 Blitzers - I think this is the first time I see a S access player and don't think mbpo. Maybe 1 developed into it, but they both certainly want Guard first skill. I'm not sure what else they need from S! MB is always good...maybe develop them with tackle and then MB? They seem to be far better as roadblocks than hitters. Guard/SF? Either way, in my 'fantasy team', I'm just giving them both guard and leaving them be. I don't think any other skills will drastically improve them.

2 Stalkers - Again, what makes these guys good? +AG would be wonderful, but they can't use their M access much. A double makes them the ideal clawbomb players. I think I'd just load up on tackle, block/tackle on both. Two Heads I could be convinced by, or alternately making these guys the runners...not sure.

Total skill TV, assuming no doubles/stats - 440.
Add the above 1230 to this, and you get 1670.

That looks reasonable for that team. A lot better than the earlier efforts.

My only concern now is the amount of skills that feel bolted on . For example - NOS/Jump Up, P access on runners, M access on Stalkers...I don't feel like I'd do anything with these, and they don't really fit the theme to me. Can you imagine a "Very Long Legs" snakeman? (and seriously, that was one of my mutation considerations...leap + VLL + AG4 gives you a gnarly ball retriever).