The Snakemen (I finally got around to changing the name)

[legowarrior]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't agree though. I was a little worried about 4 runners being the team, but I really felt that 8 positionals (the norm on a vast majority of blood bowl teams with positionals) would make it fit in better with the blood bowl universe. I also felt that increasing the prices on both the blitzers and mesmers (I do like that name too) would make up for the increased number of Runners. Maybe 4 blitzers would be better.

Still, I can't help but feel that you have created a strawman argument here, and a rather unfair one at that. You make the comparison between one of the best postionals in blood bowl (with Dodge, Block and Leap, plus high movement) and argue that the Snakeman runner is comparable to said positional (The all mightly Wardancer!), but the Runner doesn't have Dodge, Block, leap, and for a 'runner' it has rather pathetic movement. Instead it has Prehensile Tail, and Jump Up. Jump Up is a skill I take, but usually not until after dodge, block and leap. I would argue that giving the runner Jump Up instead of Dodge (which I original gave him) is a slight nerf since Dodge is one of the first skills I give a player (along with Block and Leap... odd how well built the wardancer is), while JU comes up only later after the player has been developed.

So, in the end, I can't really take your critique all that seriously. With such an outlandish and extreme comparison, I can only hope you are joking or trolling, because it certainly isn't all that constructive. I hope you understand that I'm not trying to insult you here (although, I can't help but be a little hurt if this needs up being nothing more than you trolling me, since I'd really like to make a team worthy of being played). You just don't make a very good argument.

[garion]

yeah sure lego warrior, of course i dont mind you going with it

I agree interference is a bad name, I was just trying to show his role in the team, mesmer is a far better name

glad you like the info.

Also stick with 0-2 runners, in your roster you only need 2 linemen, I hate that, it never feels right to me personally.

[Hitonagashi]

And you wonder why everyone seems to offend you! You have a *very* thin skin my friend...and let's not get into your very blunt attitude to criticism ("Interference is a terrible name"...why not just say "I don't like interference, how about Mesmer?"). I'm sure if you were arguing against yourself, you'd have scared yourself off in a huff multiple times.

I'm with Garion on that a team should never field 2 linemen. The difference between your "most teams have 8 positionals" and this team, is that in most of those teams, you never take all 8.

Almost always, you can take two throwers(amazon/norse/human/orc), but you don't. You can take all catchers, but most teams don't (Wood Elf/human/high elf/dark elf..last 2 bit controversial there). Most teams do not want to take their entire positional compliment because they do not play well together.

However, your runners are the heart of the team. The fastest moving, the most annoying. There's tons of ways to build them (with GAP, NOS/Dump off is an option, as is blodge/ss/dt). This is my reference to a wardancer. It's not stupid, because the wardancer is the core of the wood elf team, just as the runners are the core of yours. It's not a 'minor bump' to double the number of the most key positional on the team, especially when the team will revolve around those positionals.

Let's look at a developed Naga team (your version):
3 Linos (LOS fodder, rookies) - 180k
1 Abomination: (LOS fodder, Guard/Stand Firm) - 160k
1 leader runner: Block/Dodge/Leader - 140k
2 interference runners: Block/Sidestep/Dodge- 140k
1 ball runner: Block/Dodge/Sure Hands- 140k
1 Killer Blitzer: Block/MB/PO/Tackle - 160k
1 Support Blitzer: Block/Guard - 120k
2 Mesmers: Dodge - 220k
2 rerolls: 140k
8 FF: 80k

1480 TV.

With the mass PT, that's a *very* scary team for that TV.

You have a bench, you have 3 rerolls, you have a ag 4 blodging sure handed runner. You have two players able to tie up the sides of cages, and if you knock them down they jump straight back up (did I mention that you can't dodge out of the way, due to Tail?). You have MB/PO killer, for elf removal, you have guard, you have not one, but two gaze player, able to open up cages at will against bashers. Like I said, it's a T0 team.

What makes my example team so dangerous? The 4 runners. Easy AG 4 blodge access, you have spares to get a leader to offset your high RR cost, good runners. Who would you target? If there were two runners, that's an easy question, you target the killers or the Mesmers. With 4 runners? It's like a dark elf team with a positional version of Eldril, and borrowing a couple of Pact Linos for easy clawbomb access...

[Shteve0]

0-2 runners is plenty, and at 80k they'd be undercosted. As Hito very correctly points out, the trick is not to overload your team with the best players but instead keep them in limited supply. Note that the 6347 statline is already established at 60k with Pro Elfs, not 50k, so for the extra 20k you're giving them not only prehensile tail and jump up but also NoS on a normal roll (though with blodge access also on normals...). The Runners as a general rule also don't fit the exaggerated racial construction (look at Gutter Runners, for example, or Black Orcs) to be considered the key positional - they're too fast to be an exaggeration of what is supposed to be a slow AG team. My suggestion would be to look at the Blitzers being your character piece and making them Constrictor types - in which case the extra skill you're looking for is probably along the lines of Grab.

I'm with Chris and Juriel in that M access sits uncomfortably with me - the team doesn't need or even really thematically attract this. I also question the role of the big guy, and think you'd be fine with a list that ran without it.

For the record, my humble opinion is that Hito's feedback was pretty valid, and I seriously winced when I read your response calling him a troll. If you want to avoid constructive criticism, posting your ideas on a public forum and asking for feedback is likely not the best way to go about it

[dode74]

6347 is 60k if there are no other skills. It's 50k if there are others. From here.

2) AGILE PLAYER
This player type starts as:
6/3/4/8 No Skills -- 70,000 gold
This type is allowed for 0-16 slots or 0-6, 0-4, 0-2 slots
No player of this type should be priced for less than 60k
Skills disallowed to this player type:
Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy, Always Hungry, Throw Team-Mate, Loner, Bone-head, Wild Animal, Really
Stupid, Take Root
All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following:
30k: Regeneration
20k: Having Block and Dodge on the same player (this is on top of the 40k the player paid for Block and
Dodge already)
10k: Horns, Safe Throw, Thick Skull, and Very Long Legs
-10k: Decay
The following stat changes are allowed to this player type:
MA 7: +10k
MA 8: +20k
MA 9: +40k
ST 2: -30k
AV 7: -10k (if the player has NO other skills or stat increases)
AV 7: -20k
AV 9: +20k

That said, I agree with others on the Runners (0-2) and like the Constrictor concept - I think it'd be more useful than Stab, personally. I also think 10k for PT is undercosting it: it's a passive skill, certainly, but en masse it's powerful as it stacks.

[Shteve0]

Don't start all that again

[legowarrior]

And you wonder why everyone seems to offend you! You have a *very* thin skin my friend...and let's not get into your very blunt attitude to criticism ("Interference is a terrible name"...why not just say "I don't like interference, how about Mesmer?"). I'm sure if you were arguing against yourself, you'd have scared yourself off in a huff multiple times.

I'm with Garion on that a team should never field 2 linemen. The difference between your "most teams have 8 positionals" and this team, is that in most of those teams, you never take all 8.

Almost always, you can take two throwers(amazon/norse/human/orc), but you don't. You can take all catchers, but most teams don't (Wood Elf/human/high elf/dark elf..last 2 bit controversial there). Most teams do not want to take their entire positional compliment because they do not play well together.

However, your runners are the heart of the team. The fastest moving, the most annoying. There's tons of ways to build them (with GAP, NOS/Dump off is an option, as is blodge/ss/dt). This is my reference to a wardancer. It's not stupid, because the wardancer is the core of the wood elf team, just as the runners are the core of yours. It's not a 'minor bump' to double the number of the most key positional on the team, especially when the team will revolve around those positionals.

Let's look at a developed Naga team (your version):
3 Linos (LOS fodder, rookies) - 180k
1 Abomination: (LOS fodder, Guard/Stand Firm) - 160k
1 leader runner: Block/Dodge/Leader - 140k
2 interference runners: Block/Sidestep/Dodge- 140k
1 ball runner: Block/Dodge/Sure Hands- 140k
1 Killer Blitzer: Block/MB/PO/Tackle - 160k
1 Support Blitzer: Block/Guard - 120k
2 Mesmers: Dodge - 220k
2 rerolls: 140k
8 FF: 80k

1480 TV.

With the mass PT, that's a *very* scary team for that TV.

You have a bench, you have 3 rerolls, you have a ag 4 blodging sure handed runner. You have two players able to tie up the sides of cages, and if you knock them down they jump straight back up (did I mention that you can't dodge out of the way, due to Tail?). You have MB/PO killer, for elf removal, you have guard, you have not one, but two gaze player, able to open up cages at will against bashers. Like I said, it's a T0 team.

What makes my example team so dangerous? The 4 runners. Easy AG 4 blodge access, you have spares to get a leader to offset your high RR cost, good runners. Who would you target? If there were two runners, that's an easy question, you target the killers or the Mesmers. With 4 runners? It's like a dark elf team with a positional version of Eldril, and borrowing a couple of Pact Linos for easy clawbomb access...

Okay, so maybe I took it a little too harshly, and certainly, my intention was never to insult garion's idea (which I happen to think is pretty awesome). I apologize, I didn't realize you meant the role of the runners not the power levels when you compared them to the wardancers (you have to admit that the wardancers are just a tad bit better a positional than the runner (and by tad bit, I mean, they are super awesome cats pjs, why can't I have 1 on every team I build (and yes, I know, parenthesis, within a parenthesis... I think that's pretty cool, and this one might just be a little over the top (where as this one is most definitely over the top, but I digress)))). So, taking that to heart, as well as the discussion about the cost and power of PT, and everything else, and (this is most important) Garion's blessing to make changes to the Cockerel (which hopefully we keep the essence of what we are all working towards), here is something new for your consideration.

0–16 - 60k - Snakemen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, G/ASPM
0–2 - 90k – Runners – 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 - Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, GAP/SM
0–2 - 90k – Mesmer 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze GMA/ASP
0-2 – 110k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, Stab,GS/APM
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 70k

I'm stuck. I like the idea of Snakemen being devious, and underhanded (and for life of me, I'm not sure why the skaven don't have a stab player) but I also like the idea of giving the wrestle, to represent them coiling around the opponent, and dragging them down. We could make an assassin type position, but Dark Elves have one, and I don't like the idea of more than one fancy named positional, or we could try to combine them with the Blitzers, which is what I did here. They have wrestle to take a player down, and stab when the want to take a risk free action, and need to leave a blitzers next to another player. I've upped the price on the Runners and the Blitzers as well, although that might be a bit much.

You could field 6 linesmen, 2 Runners, a Mesmer, 2 Blitzers and 2 Rerolls with 10k.

Still, I think tweaking needs to be done. Despite how thin skinned some might think of me, I've made more than a few changes to the Cockerel based on the suggestions, observations and critiques of others.

[Hitonagashi]

No worries. Always easier to judge when it isn't your baby .

I just had a train journey, and I was wondering about what bugs me on this team. With 2 runners, it's certainly not the power level, so here goes:

1) Slow starter. Not that this makes a huge difference, but it will mean that it wouldn't see much appearances in TT play. Always a shame. This isn't necessarily a deal breaker, as Chaos/Pact/Nurgle/Slann all are also slow..but it's annoying.

2) Extremely targetted. Elves are dead. Dead dead dead. You have MB/PO/Tackle, and you have mass tail. And if they get away, you can gaze down the screens they try and use to protect their valuable players from the MBPO. The problem is, they just aren't that good against anyone else. Tail is great for preventing dodging away, but if you are any other race, they can out ST you, and it's much more 'efficient' to develop your blitzers as killers rather than strippers. Your runners are too precious to chuck into a cage, so there's not much to follow up with when the Mesmer opens it. This is my main concern here...you'll just get guardlocked and beaten up. Team that takes lots of casualties + slow starter == recipe for lots of rebuilding and not as much fun.

3) Positional names. Can they all be as cool as Mesmer?

With that in mind, here's my proposed team:
0–16 - 60k - Snakemen – 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Prehensile Tail, G/ASPM
0–2 - 90k – Runners – 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 - Prehensile Tail, Wrestle, GAP/SM
0–2 - 90k – Mesmer 4 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze GMA/SP
0-2 – 110k – Blitzers 5 / 3 / 4 / 8 – Prehensile Tail, Guard,GA/SPM
0-1 – 130k – Abomination 4 / 5 / 2 / 9 – Loner, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Bone Head S/GAPM
0-8 Rerolls - 60k

It's a bit different, so here's my rational:
Making the Abomination better. I see an abomination as a slow shambling thing that eats people. To me, Bonehead fits better...though possibly Really Stupid instead?
Runners + Blitzers: Deserve a name change. My problem before, was as stated, the blitzers be MB/PO/Tackle bunnies. I don't really like that (and I believe I commented about it earlier). Now, they are certainly very powerful now...but that's somewhat mitigated by removing the bash game. I'm sorry, I just can't really see a snake with MB/PO!

Now, this roster addresses the points I brought up above: Guard and Wrestle as starting skills gives you a good early game. Your gameplan is simple against bashers, mesmer opens the cage, guard blitzer lends an assist, and wrestle runner runs into it.

You are no longer godlike against elves. Still very good, with the mass tail, but removing the MB/PO means that you'll have to be careful with positioning much more. It also means that every double won't just be a no thought required claw...probably two heads, but you'll have to really think on whether you want an S skill (say, MB), or a mutation.

You are far better against the other races. Instead of having to rely on a poor bash game, Blodge/sidestep/Guard blitzers means that you are a real threat at stripping the ball....which is only negated by your slow speed making it hard to clear it! It's a real positional players team.

Finally, I dropped the rerolls to 60k. To me, 70k is a disorganised rabble who can't communicate (goblins, pact, underworld etc), and I imagine Snakemen to be good at talking to each other. The reroll cost is meant to represent how organised they are.

I'm not sure whether my variant is too powerful. It is a scary team..but I'm very aware of how slow it is. Like vampires, given a good turn, it could do anything, but it's going to be really hard to get the ball loose and keep it, given the speed difference. I suspect it would come in about T1.5, but be very potent in the hands of a good player. If they are too powerful, dropping wrestle from the runners and swopping them back to your Jump Up would work.

[Darkson]

Still extremely anti mutation access. Fits the fluff as well for me as Pass does on the Khorne roster.
Also think prehensile tail may need removing from some positions - yes it fits the fluff, but I worry it's to good when on every player - perhaps change some to Grab?

If Stab is removed (which at the moment I agree with Hito), then a snakeman Stab Star is a must.

[Juriel]

I, also, am still anti-mutation. The team doesn't need it, and they already have plenty of options to pick from.

Too much Tail, because it stacks - elves will be screwed, yes, but that just makes those games boring, rather than tactical. It also won't do anything to the bashy teams that are this team's weakness.

[garion]

Still extremely anti mutation access. Fits the fluff as well for me as Pass does on the Khorne roster.
Also think prehensile tail may need removing from some positions - yes it fits the fluff, but I worry it's to good when on every player - perhaps change some to Grab?

If Stab is removed (which at the moment I agree with Hito), then a snakeman Stab Star is a must.

why do you think mutation should be removed? This is a Chaos team after all. A snakeman called Zzchhtrr, V'hnn Qllss was the captain of the Chaos all stars in 67 (ish) when they won the Bloodbowl, mutations are a must imo.

Hito - Your roster looks okay, but I can never agree with Guard as a starter skill for anyone really. I think it is just too good a skill to start off with.

[Hitonagashi]

I mostly agree with you Garion, but the problem is, this roster sucks against anything that doesn't dodge. It's a great starting skill, but it should give the effect of having S access without the killstack aspect of it.

The roster really needs a hand against non elves, and easy guard is it to me.

I'm a bit torn, I suspect my version is still slightly too powerful, especially as a starting team. I certainly see what people mean with the mass tail thing. I'm wondering if a mass av 7 drop and slightly cheaper players would be the solution here.

[garion]

yeah, i know what you mean, bash teams could slaughter the team, but at the same time, hypno gaze and ag 4 all round shouldn't be sniffed at either. But yeah it is a really tricky one to get right imo. I'm not really happy with any of the rosters yet. But they are getting closed.

[Darkson]

why do you think mutation should be removed?

Because looking at the old snakemen figures, they didn't have mutations, they were a chaotic race, but they (at least from what little fluff and figures there were) a stable one.
That, and we don't need another team with Claw access.

[garion]

why do you think mutation should be removed?

Because looking at the old snakemen figures, they didn't have mutations, they were a chaotic race, but they (at least from what little fluff and figures there were) a stable one.
That, and we don't need another team with Claw access.

yeah, fair points, claw teams are quite dull, but for me, chaos teams mutate. The problem there is how crap the BBRC made all mutations other than Claw really. an Ag team with mutations could be interesting, I guess removal of any St players from the roster wouldn't be a bad thing, as CPOMB is so boring and as you say there are too many of them in this ed. Especially with the removal of Fang meaning Snow Troll and Werewolves have claw when they shouldn't.