Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM etc

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dode74
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Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM etc

Post by dode74 »

Player development and skill access is, imo, one of the sources of imbalance in the game as TV changes. It seems to me that the teams which get relatively better as TV increases are those which have good skill access across the team and good stats, and generally start with few skills - the 4 Elven teams and Chaos spring to mind. If you accept the premise that some skills have more on-pitch value than others this makes intuitive sense: those who have lots of skills to choose from have a higher number of valuable skills to choose from and are therefore able to gain more effect from their 20TV of normal skill. It also makes sense from the other perspective: limited skill access teams are only able to get that kind of skill access on the whims of Nuffle (doubles) and pay more for it when they do get it - a double disadvantage. Finally, there is the "synergy" aspect of some skill cross-category combinations: blodge and CPOMB spring to mind as skillsets which are highly effective and can only happen normally to players who have good skill access (GA or SM, ideally GSM), and when they do happen they cost the same as a two non-synergistic skills for a limited skill access player. In short, a player which has good skill access has better developmental opportunities than a player with limited skill access, and this will have an effect on the team as players develop further.

There have been several suggestions to alter this, such as having a step increase in cost per skill a player takes (e.g. +10 for the 3rd, +20 for the 4th etc so normal skills would cost 20, 20, 30, 40 etc) or including skill access in the cost of designing a player.
I have issues with both of those: the first doesn't address the issue of skill access, it simply increases the cost for taking more skills. This will effect all teams equally, only really hurting teams which stack skills. If anything, players which are forced to take less-than-ideal skills which cost even more would probably be hurt even more.
The second option I dislike because it is pre-payment for what might happen. If we look at a 6338G player and a 6338GA player there is no actual difference between them as rookies: one is just as (in)effective as the other. With that in mind, why should the GA player cost more? Because he might get to 16SPP and take advantage of having two skillsets available to him? Seems to me that such a measure would have a large effect on the low-TV game, nerfing the good skill access teams across the board at that level. Do they need it at low TV? I've seen no stats to suggest that they do. Chaos in particular are renowned for being poor at low TV, and this would make them even worse.

I do get the difference between the 6338G and 6338GA player, of course, but the difference is one of developmental possibility rather than actual effectiveness as a rookie. That's why I don't see an up-front premium as the solution. My solution would be for such players to pay a premium when the synergy kicks in rather than beforehand - it's a better representation of the actual on-pitch capability, which is what we seem to want TV to be (and it isn't now). To that end I rather liked an "unlock" option for multiple skill access players. As an example, our 6338G player would be able to take skills at the normal 20TV cost, or doubles at 30TV etc in the usual manner. Our 6338GA player would be able to take his first skill at the normal 20TV cost, and any further skills from that category at the same cost. On doubles he would be able to select any skill he could normally select on a double at 30TV if the category is not yet "unlocked", unlocking the category in the process. Should he roll a single and want to take a skill from a new unlocked normal category, though, a premium would be applied (e.g. an extra 20TV).

Example progressions for 6338GA:
-------
Skill 1 rolls singles: Block 20TV
Skill 2 rolls doubles: G for 20TV or ASP for 30TV (because A skills are not yet unlocked)
Skill 3 rolls doubles: GA for 20TV (assuming he unlocked A at skill 2, otherwise A for 30TV), SP for 30TV
-------
Skill 1 rolls singles: Block 20TV
Skill 2 rolls singles: G for 20TV or A for 40TV (20TV for the skill, 20TV to unlock it)
Skill 3 rolls doubles: GA for 20TV (assuming he unlocked A at skill 2, otherwise A for 30TV), MP for 30TV

This makes progression for cross-category skills more expensive. It would add 40TV to a Block CPOMB player and 20TV to a blodger, for example, unless doubles rolls were used to unlock skills at a lower cost. It's not a massive amount, by any stretch, but a few blodgers would soon add up, as would a few CPOMBers.

Players who start with a skill from a skillset (e.g. block on blitzers) would not be considered to have that skillset "unlocked" yet. That way a DE blitzer, for example, could blodge up at the same cost as now, but taking tackle would cost the premium. Similarly, doubles become an interesting option: do I take Guard on that same DE blitzer, or do I take the lower cost of opening up tackle and dauntless; where do I want the player to go? Sounds like a no-brainer, but if you have a few guards already then it's not so simple.

One of the downsides, though, is individual players costing different amounts with the same skills depending on whether they unlocked the skill with doubles or not. That's no major issue so long as it is annotated somewhere - certainly no issue for an online environment, and no more of an issue for TT than noting the correct number of SPPs.

The main advantages are that it does alter the dynamic for synergistic cross-category skills, making them cost more for the reasons stated above, and it doesn't involve any changes to the rosters themselves. If anything it might make skill selection, particularly in MM environments, more interesting. I'm not pretending this will fix everything, but it will increase the cost of taking those high-synergy, cross-category skills.

Thoughts?
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Re: Multiple normal skill category access cost

Post by MattDakka »

May you make a comparison between a current minmaxed team's TV (Pact, Chaos Dwarfs, Amazons for example) and the same team's TV with your TV system?

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dode74
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Re: Multiple normal skill category access cost

Post by dode74 »

Give me an example team and I'll calculate a new TV for them. I can either assume that no doubles were used for selecting new categories or I can give a range from "all new categories were doubles" to "no new categories were doubles".

Bear in mind that it's not aimed at minmaxers, more at the teams which are effective at high TV. It will probably have an effect on them, just not a big one at all.

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Re: Multiple normal skill category access cost

Post by MattDakka »

Ah it's aimed to high TV, I see.
What about this team?
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=685753
Not the peak of the minmax with the Ogre and the Goblin, but without them we can consider it minmaxed.

Chaos Dwarf team:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=697563

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dode74
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Re: Multiple normal skill category access cost

Post by dode74 »

[PMV] Kill Your Heroes - Pact - Currently 1220TV, would be between 1260 (all unlocks are doubles) and 1300 (no unlocks are doubles). Given the 1/6 chance of a double I'd err towards 1300TV.
Extra Large - Chaos Dwarf - Currently 1340TV, would be between 1380 (all unlocks are doubles) and 1420 (no unlocks are doubles). Given the 1/6 chance of a double I'd err towards 1420TV.

For examples of higher TV teams:
Veronica Mars - Dark Elf - Currently 2110TV, would be between 2180 (all unlocks are doubles) and 2250 (no unlocks are doubles). Given the 1/6 chance of a double I'd err towards 2240TV.
WMD's in The Box - Chaos - Currently 1690TV, would be between 1810 (all unlocks are doubles) and 1930 (no unlocks are doubles). Given the 1/6 chance of a double I'd err towards 1910TV.

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Re: Multiple normal skill category access cost

Post by MattDakka »

Your system seems good.
With the new calculated TV SE would affect the high TV teams which now avoid it (such as WMD's in the Box).

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Re: Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM et

Post by spubbbba »

I’m wary of anything that complicates skill progression even more. In your example if the player took dodge you’d have to keep track of whether the player rolled doubles for his 2nd skill to calculate the TV.

I prefer the method where skill and player costs are adjusted so the usual suspects (block, dodge, guard, MB, PO) cost more whilst the rubbish skills (catch, passblock, diving catch etc) cost less. I think we should bring in 5K prices to add more flexibility as well.

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Re: Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM et

Post by Darkson »

spubbbba wrote:I prefer the method where skill and player costs are adjusted so the usual suspects (block, dodge, guard, MB, PO) cost more whilst the rubbish skills (catch, passblock, diving catch etc) cost less.
+1 - only takes an accidental (or deliberate) mis-marking of whether a skill was a double or not, and you've a recipe for calls for cheating/unfairness/whatever.
Of course, on a PC it's not difficult at all, but any rule changes should be about TT first and foremost - if they're not "simple" there, they're not good rules.
I think we should bring in 5K prices to add more flexibility as well.
For both skills and players I assume?

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Re: Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM et

Post by spubbbba »

Darkson wrote:For both skills and players I assume?
Yeah, it would be a more precise way of tweaking teams and skills.

You could make something like block 25K, tackle 20K and passblock 15K, maybe some changing to 30K or 10K if they were really extreme. For doubles there would be either a universal 10K or15K premium on top of that.

I also think it would be good on players, sometimes they seem a bit over or underpriced but the full 10K change is too much, especially if they are 0-16 or 0-4. You’d also need to change the player cost for those who start with good skills. It would allow small adjustments say make longberads 75K or human blitzers 85K.

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Re: Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM et

Post by dines »

The results of your system seems fine. Except chaos dwarves might get out cheap as they doesn't really need general skills. But I agree with Darkson and Spub, it's too complicated for TT.

Regarding the alternatives:
- Paying more for skill access players I agree, that would ruin short term play for those teams.
- Higher price for later skills will lead to more firing of "bloated" players but its simpler and therefore better for tt imo.
- Variation in skill price might be a better option. The downside is that teams with starting skills gets even better short term unless their price are adjusted.

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Re: Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM et

Post by dode74 »

I'm not sure how you guys think my suggestion is any more complicated, difficult to keep track of or prone to cheating than marking down SPP is. After all, it only takes an accidental (or deliberate) mis-marking of whether a cas/pass/TD happened or not, and you've a recipe for calls for cheating/unfairness/whatever. Is it really that complex in TT to have to write the result of the skill roll above the skill itself as a method of keeping track?

Variation in skill cost is a different option and, while it does address the fact that some skills are simply better than others, it doesn't address the fact that there is no way you'll get people to agree as to which skill should be in which list (25, 20 or 15). The benefit my system has over that one is that it takes an already existing and "known" to be unbalancing feature and adds a cost to the current mechanic rather than forcing an across-the-board rewrite of skill costs: the cost-benefit analysis is therefore down to the individual coach at the time of taking the skill.

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Re: Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM et

Post by Darkson »

dode74 wrote: "known" to be unbalancing feature
Do you have figures to back that up, or is that just your opinion?


And I disagree that Ag skill access is a problem, apart from Dodge, I don't see GA players as a problem. The Elves being a problem (are they? Do you have the data to back that up?) is more (imo, and unsubstantiated with data) to do with AG4 than access to Agility.

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Re: Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM et

Post by dode74 »

It's my opinion, as I clearly stated in the OP and highlighted by using quote marks around "known". If you disagree with the premise that there is a problem then there's no need for a solution, of course ;)

What data we do have is from MM, and I doubt that many would find that acceptable (rightly or wrongly).

You've still not explained how it's more complicated than marking down SPP. Furthermore, the option you +1'd above (changing skill costs) has nothing to do with AG4, which leads me to believe that you don't actually think AG4 is the issue at hand here, but the differing values of skills relative to their cost, which is exactly the issue I am addressing.

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Re: Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM et

Post by Darkson »

No, I'd rather change skill costs than your solution. But if I had to take your solution, I think that Ag4 is more of an issue on elf teams than access to GA.

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Re: Paying for multiple normal skill access, e.g. GA, GSM et

Post by dode74 »

Fair enough, but why? Changing skill costs doesn't alter the fact that teams with multiple normal skill access on all/most players have it easier when developing, both in terms of ability to take other skills not being down to luck and the cost of taking them (which is the issue I am addressing), and it doesn't have anything to do with AG4 (which appears to be the issue you want to address).

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