Equalizing skill effectiveness

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fidius
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Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by fidius »

This started out as a reply to spubbbba's thread, but then I realized I was derailing it. Not sure this is a better approach. But here are my ideas for addressing the problem of skill values and the lack of diversity between teams (the "optimal build" problem).

I was not around the game until CRP so I don't have the background you guys do. But it appears as though simplicity was a major design goal. Assuming this goal is still high priority with the powers that be, granulating skill costings down to 5k increments, and creating tier costing, strikes me as countereffective. Plus I think certain skills are optimal picks on certain players, but poor selections on others, so to really cost them properly you'll have to have costings based on Team. Way too complicated imo.

Cutting back on category access helps level out rookie teams, but would exacerbate the "doubles effect", ie teams would get substantially better with some skill-roll luck. You want some of this I think, but you certainly don't want to make it worse than it already is.

I think the current problem (arguably two-fold: killer wins, and diversity sucks) can be best addressed by changing the skills themselves to bring them more in-line with one another. This means dumbing down the good ones and improving the bad ones. Dumbing down good skills would not be popular. However here are my ideas.

"Best" skills = Block, MB, PO, Guard, Claw, Dodge
"Bad" skills = Sneaky Git, Pass Block

Certain of these can be addressed but others are not so easy to correct. So:
Dodge - Split between dodging ("Evade") and defensive ("Deflect", or combine with Sure Feet).
MB - +1 to armour OR 9 on Inj=BH. Available as Extraordinary to Big Guys only. Create a new Strength skill ("Pummel") +1 to armour rolls, and a new Agility skill ("Low Blow") 9 on Inj=BH (or see Cheating, below). New skills cannot combine with MB.
PO - Carries ejection penalties (or see below)
Claw - leave as-is
Block - Split into offensive ("Block") and defensive ("Sturdy"). For example, Norse and all blitzers would get the former, Dwarves the latter.
Guard - hardest to address, but perhaps introduce an anti-Guard skill, such as (General) "Trash Talker" - If adjacent, nullifies Guard skill. Or, more radically, Guard nullifies Guard.
Sneaky Git - reroll any doubles on armour or injury when using a skill subject to ejection (except PO, which is already a reroll skill)
Pass Block - increase move to 4...? free dodges?

I'd also consider creating a new skill category called Cheating (standard access for Goblins). All uses of skills in this category carry the threat of doubles=ejection. Sneaky Git would naturally be quite useful here.
Dirty Player - +1 to armour OR 9 on Inj=BH on fouls
Piling On - note: cannot re-roll more than once, so does not combine with SG
Low Blow - 9 on Inj=BH on blocks
Shiv - as Claw

If these changes were in place, the game might need more frequent skill selection (fewer SPP between levels), and/or a larger number of potential levels per player to compensate for the lesser effectiveness of the good skills.

-Fidius

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spubbbba
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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by spubbbba »

Well I doubt you’d have derailed my thread as it has pretty much died off. The discussion is interesting but largely academic since it’s unlikely we’ll get a lrb7 and house rules are best done by a small group that will actually use them. It is interesting to discuss though.

I think you’re right that the best way to fix progression for teams would be to completely rewrite the skills in an attempt to have less disparity between the best and worst. This is a pretty monumental task as some skills are used all the time (block and dodge) whilst other will be only occasionally but can be game changing (passblock). Part of the issue is that blocking is a lot safer than passing and most of the time the penalties for failure are less.

The danger with splitting the skills is that you want to make it worthwhile to skill up a player, it’s also very difficult to come up with a couple of dozen skills that are interesting and equal. Let’s face it no matter how hard you try some skills or combos will always be better.

You’d also need to adjust starting teams, but that could open up more variety. It might be nice if the blitzers from the teams all had different skills.

I suppose you could do away with the skills altogether and be able to buy stats or abilities when you go up a level, kind of like in rpg’s. Your path would open up certain skills, maybe some would only be available once you had others or had reached 51 spp’s. If these were given a cost then you could either buy block for 20TV or passblock for 7 and strip ball for 8 saving the other 5 for your next skill. You could even allow players to buy stats and doubles somewhat. A player missing out on skills 1 and 2 could cash these in at 31spp’s to buy +ST with 10 left over.

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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by Pug »

Rather than re-write skills how about subdivide the skill sets!

Quick example using the General, Strength, Agility and Passing list table found on pg 68 of the CRP.

As you have two columns in each section, call one column "A" and the other "B".

If you take "A" skills , you can't use "B" skills unless a doubles roll when gaining improvements.

Then it's just a matter of jiggling skills into two sets per area.

Could stop the proliferation of Blodge by putting one in "A" and one in "B".....

...my mind-fart to the conversation!...

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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by MattDakka »

spubbbba wrote: I suppose you could do away with the skills altogether and be able to buy stats or abilities when you go up a level, kind of like in rpg’s. Your path would open up certain skills, maybe some would only be available once you had others or had reached 51 spp’s..
An idea I ever had is that some skills should require a prerequisite:
for example Mighty Blow should be available to ST 4+ players only, Dodge only to AG 3+ players.

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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by Bludbowler »

One way to add variety to skill combinations in players would be a rule preventing coaches from choosing a skill for a player that would give that player the exact same skill combination as any other player on that team. Players can have common skills, just not he exact same combination of multiple skills.

For example, Player A adds Block as his first skill, so Player B is forced to take some other skill for his first, like Guard. When player B is ready for his second skill, he can take Block because his Block/Guard combo is different from Player A, unless Player A already has Guard as his second skill.

This system allows coaches to choose skills for their players, while also creating wider variety of skill combinations in the long run.

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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by Long_Bomb »

I do really like the idea of block and dodge being split into two skills as currently they are something of a no-brainer for skill selection. I realise this may mess up some of the current teams but it would increase the number of worthwhile skills and reduce the impact of some of the more powerful teams.

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fidius
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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by fidius »

Good points. By way of example I'd suggest something along these lines:

Skill changes:
Old Block becomes...
Block (General)
A player with the Block skill is proficient at knocking opponents down. When blocking an opponent, this player is not affected by a Both Down result on the block dice.

Steady (General)
A player with the Steady skill has learned to remain on his feet on defense. When blocked by an opponent, this player is not affected by a Both Down result on the block dice.

Old Dodge becomes...
Dodge (Agility)
A player with the Dodge skill is adept at slipping away from opponents, and is allowed to re-roll the d6 if he fails to dodge out of any of an opposing player’s tackle zones. However, the player may only re-roll one failed dodge roll per turn.

Balance (Agility)
A player with the Balance skill has the ability to remain on his feet when otherwise he might be brought down. When blocked by an opponent, this player may choose to treat a Defender Stumbles result as a Push on the block dice.

Old Tackle becomes...
Tackle (General)
Players with this skill are adept at bringing down even the most slippery of targets. Opposing players may not use their Balance skill if the player throws a block at them and uses the Tackle skill.

Clutch (General)
Opposing players who are standing in any of this player’s tackle zones are not allowed to use their Dodge skill if they attempt to dodge out of any of the player’s tackle zones.

So a Dwarf team might look more like this:
Blockers: Steady, Clutch, Thick Skull
Runners: Sure Hands, Thick Skull
Blitzers: Block, Steady, Thick Skull
Troll Slayers: Block, Dauntless, Frenzy, Thick Skull

And an Amazon team might look like this:
Linewomen: Balance
Throwers: Balance, Pass
Catchers: Balance, Dodge, Catch
Blitzers: Balance, Block

And Norse:
Linemen: Block
Throwers: Block, Pass
Catchers: Block, Dauntless
Blitzers: Block, Frenzy, Jump Up
Norse Werewolves: Frenzy
Yhetee: Loner, Claws, Disturbing Presence, Frenzy, Wild Animal

And since the skills are less useful individually, player costs might have to adjust down slightly. Also SPP levels would be shrunken, eg:

New
Rookie 0
Experienced 6
Veteran 14
Emerging Star 25
Star 41
Super Star 66
Franchise Player 106
Legend 176

The ultimate proof of a balanced system is if, as you're making your way through the rules, you think to yourself, "I don't know what skills I'd choose next." Obviously it can't possibly be perfect, but the current no-brainer picks are bad for the game in my opinion.

One of the side effects of these changes is that the power of these three teams, known for early-league dominance, is reduced.

Anyway just my ideas so far, I'll put them all together in a coherent structure one of these days.

Fidius

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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by Long_Bomb »

I like tackle as it is and don't think it should be split.

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fidius
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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by fidius »

Long_Bomb wrote:I like tackle as it is and don't think it should be split.
Well, it's tricky, right. If you split Dodge, which I think is necessary because it's one of those power "two-fer" skills that does two things for the price of one, but leave Tackle, Tackle gets even stronger. And it's really crazy strong against certain teams, especially stunties. So in my mind if you split one, you split the other. But I agree in part -- the "Tackle" part of Tackle, ie the bringing-down on the block dice, would still be worth taking on any blitzing ball-hawk or killer player. The "sticky" (what I've called Clutch) part of Tackle is definitely the weaker of the two, mainly finding potential use in a marker type, or in a Diving Tackle/Shadowing/Side Step scenario. It could use a boost, maybe by combining with Diving Tackle, or by adding a perk, like "dodging away from a Clutch player costs an extra square of movement,", or "the dodging player cannot use *any* reroll on the dodge, including from the Dodge skill," or "any dodge roll away from a player with Clutch is made at -1." This latter one seems the most appealing to me but infringes on DT (and PT) territory. So maybe you put DT and Clutch together, and make it a Dodge-nullifying -1 on the roll, and switch it to General.

Just spit-balling of course.

Fidius

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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by plasmoid »

I've also been thinking about splitting Dodge (just Dodge) lately.
Even considering doing it in an NTBB context, but that would be a huge step.
Tackle gets even stronger
But does it really?
It does exactly what it used to do, but it does it against something less likely to get picked. Tackle could easily see less use.

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Re: Equalizing skill effectiveness

Post by Long_Bomb »

I do tend to think that tackle is only so powerful because it is the only real answer to dodge. If dodge is split then as plasmoid said we will see less chance to use tackle.

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