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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Elyoukey wrote:
petitgars wrote:
An alternative of the number of journeymen is the generic journeymen: 6 3 3 8 no comp'. for all the teams.

a lizardmen team or a gobelin team would be a lot more happy to have a non-stunty ball carrier than a human team would be to have "another" lineman.

Are you serious when you say that a lizardmen coach can be happy to pick up the ball with a MA 6 player, without dodge, LONER, and losing the experience points doing that? And is it a problem to make goblin coachs happy with a human loner lineman?

Afroman wrote:
Every team with less than 11 "Fit for Fight"-players has 150k(3 human linemen) available for hiring journeymen. If This doesn't raise the number of "Fit for Fight"-players to 11 then the team is allowed to continue hiring journey men for free untill it has 11 "Fit for Fight"-players.

I like this too.

spubbbba wrote:
1-However they are cheap to compensate for that so you can start with more than 11 and still have cash to replace them.

[...]2- But for elves it can be a problem since you’re likely to end up with less players on the pitch so those journeyman may have to make a vital block/pass/dodge.

1-not for all. Vampire team, or Goblin team, can begin with few cash. I'm ok for the hafling, there is no problem of cash, but not i'm not sure for the others.
2-elves are not the only one to do that kind of things with journeymen. Why others can't have an elfish journeymen if they do that?
I think that all team who start with 11 players and a low AV is potentially getting troubles...And 'll have to use journeymen without caution.

But, if i'm wrong (which is possible), Afroman proposition seem's to be better for that point. A bit more complex, but with no necessary to learn how many players has the team at the beginning (sorry for the english).


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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:09 am 
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petitgars wrote:
Are you serious when you say that a lizardmen coach can be happy to pick up the ball with a MA 6 player, without dodge, LONER, and losing the experience points doing that?

ST2 mean you "always" get blocked with +2 dice (and even 3 if things are very bad), meaning your dodge skill will not be very usefull.
MA6 is the same as saurus which are making the cage, so there is no issue with MA6.
One should never dodge with the ball carrier, meaning that in most situation you will not need dodge to move away. If i dodge with the ball carrier this means that i am in a very bad situation, in which the ST3 will be more handy.
SPPs on skinks are waste, you need the saurus to skill up, a skilled up skink is TV bloat, so scoring with not a skink is not that bad. Skinks will find their SPP in the counter-score phase not in the offense, and even if they don't skill up, it is not a problem because a skink is a good player out of the box.
So yes all the way, i will take the human loner lino in a lizard team just for ball carying. It will not make the team invincible, but it will fix some problem a lizard coach is used to face.

petitgars wrote:
And is it a problem to make goblin coachs happy with a human loner lineman?

No, it is just an exemple that the human lino will not have the same impact on every team. This leading to even more unbalance.

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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:48 pm 
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petitgars wrote:
spubbbba wrote:
1-However they are cheap to compensate for that so you can start with more than 11 and still have cash to replace them.

[...]2- But for elves it can be a problem since you’re likely to end up with less players on the pitch so those journeyman may have to make a vital block/pass/dodge.

1-not for all. Vampire team, or Goblin team, can begin with few cash. I'm ok for the hafling, there is no problem of cash, but not i'm not sure for the others.
2-elves are not the only one to do that kind of things with journeymen. Why others can't have an elfish journeymen if they do that?
I think that all team who start with 11 players and a low AV is potentially getting troubles...And 'll have to use journeymen without caution.

But, if i'm wrong (which is possible), Afroman proposition seem's to be better for that point. A bit more complex, but with no necessary to learn how many players has the team at the beginning (sorry for the english).


1. Well goblins can start with
2 Trolls, 1 bomber, 1 looney, 10 goblins and 3 rerolls for 880. So that’s 14 players total and 120K left to either upgrade the team or save for later in the season.
Vamps can have
2 Vamps, 10 thralls, 4 rerolls for 900. That’s 12 players and enough left to either save or spend on more thralls, an apoth, upgrade to a vamp or a reroll.

There are few teams that can start with everything they need (undead, dwarfs and zons pretty much do) and it’s rare for tier 1 teams to be able to have a decent team with cash left over. But again, the tier 2/3 teams are supposed to be bad so I don’t think we should introduce rules that impact all teams based on them.

2. That’s a choice coaches have to make when they choose which race to use and what players to start with. Elves are expensive precisely because they start with good stats, so you can’t have all positonals, subs an apoth and enough re-rolls to begin with.
I think this is a good thing as it encourages smart play. If a skaven player wants to have a rat ogre he has to pay the same for that in TV as 3 linerats so has to decide which is of more value to his team. The linerats may not last long but if they let you start with 11 in the 2nd half and live long enough to allow the gutters to steal the ball and win the game then it’s worth it.

Deaths are pretty rare in BB, so maybe coaches who are always playing under strength need to keep injured players, spend their cash on linemen instead of blitzers, fire players that bloat TV too much or use their inducement money on mercs and extra apoths.

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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:53 am 
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spubbbba wrote:
1. Well goblins can start with
2 Trolls, 1 bomber, 1 looney, 10 goblins and 3 rerolls for 880. So that’s 14 players total and 120K left to either upgrade the team or save for later in the season.
Vamps can have
2 Vamps, 10 thralls, 4 rerolls for 900. That’s 12 players and enough left to either save or spend on more thralls, an apoth, upgrade to a vamp or a reroll.

There are few teams that can start with everything they need (undead, dwarfs and zons pretty much do) and it’s rare for tier 1 teams to be able to have a decent team with cash left over. But again, the tier 2/3 teams are supposed to be bad so I don’t think we should introduce rules that impact all teams based on them.

Take the exemple of vampire team. This year, i've try them, with, like you propose 3 vamp, 12 thralls, 4 rolls. The 6 first casualty (3 matchs) were die and mixt next match =>2 journeymen 3 matchs. Have u ever play with 11 players in a vampire team? I do. Not very fun. Okay, it is unluck, but the variant rule i propose can correct this unluck point without any problem and disavantaging for another team (in my opinion). I don't have see for what team it make a problem.

For goblin one, you don't take a pogo stick? Is yes, you don't have so more pretty cash (only 50, 1 goblin). And with 2 secret weapons, you 'll have quickly only 12 players. Wich 'll have casualty (stunty). Usually on "non secret weapons" players, cause they stay more time on the field => could be next game with few players (sure, more than 11, but with secret weapons inside). With that rule, your beginning is the same, but you have journeymen like others team who use less than 11 players if there is a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:15 pm 
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T3 teams are worse than T1 teams and can be frustrating at times. News at 11 :)


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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:45 pm 
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petitgars wrote:
Take the exemple of vampire team. This year, i've try them, with, like you propose 3 vamp, 12 thralls, 4 rolls. The 6 first casualty (3 matchs) were die and mixt next match =>2 journeymen 3 matchs. Have u ever play with 11 players in a vampire team? I do. Not very fun. Okay, it is unluck, but the variant rule i propose can correct this unluck point without any problem and disavantaging for another team (in my opinion). I don't have see for what team it make a problem.

For goblin one, you don't take a pogo stick? Is yes, you don't have so more pretty cash (only 50, 1 goblin). And with 2 secret weapons, you 'll have quickly only 12 players. Wich 'll have casualty (stunty). Usually on "non secret weapons" players, cause they stay more time on the field => could be next game with few players (sure, more than 11, but with secret weapons inside). With that rule, your beginning is the same, but you have journeymen like others team who use less than 11 players if there is a problem.


I used those 2 teams as examples of what you could get with some cash left over. Both Vamps and Goblins are going to lose the blocking wars most of the time so that’s something you have to anticipate. But there are ways to mitigate this by spending your starting cash on substitutes, apoths or saved cash to buy replacements. Of course this means you’ll have to lose out on other options such as re-rolls or positionals.

But I think being forced to make these choices is a good thing. Part of the skill of Bloodbowl is how you manage your team off the pitch, this is extremely important in a league and something that is missing from 1 off matches (either TV based or a friendly in TT).

Starting with few subs and all positionals for goblins may look like fun but as you stated you’ll quickly run out of players in the 2nd half when they get sent off or injured. The same is true for starting with lots of vamps and/or re-rolls at the cost of taking more thralls since your own players will injure each other.

Mind you all teams are vulnerable to losing players in the early games, if anything the agile tier 1 teams suffer more since their players are almost as easy to kill but often cost twice as much as 40K fodder.

So I don’t think this is something that needs fixing, there are already ways to mitigate this somewhat as I’ve explained above. Ultimately some coaches aren’t suited to non-tier 1 teams, if you don’t like getting beaten up and suffering a high turnover then stick to the bashers.

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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Quote:
Mind you all teams are vulnerable to losing players in the early games, if anything the agile tier 1 teams suffer more since their players are almost as easy to kill but often cost twice as much as 40K fodder.

Yes, but a tier 1 team can play easily with a journeymen. A tier 3 team can't. Could you say the opposite? Have you try?

Quote:
So I don’t think this is something that needs fixing, there are already ways to mitigate this somewhat as I’ve explained above. Ultimately some coaches aren’t suited to non-tier 1 teams, if you don’t like getting beaten up and suffering a high turnover then stick to the bashers.

I disagree. I have played a lot of team, both tier 1 and tier 3. A tier 1 team is designed to be played with 11 players, and if she hasn't, she has journeymen. A tier 3 team is designed to be played with more than 11 (usually 12-13), and if she hasn't, she cry.

This is my point of vue. And, yes, i 've try a lot of team.


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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:33 pm 
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petitgars wrote:
Quote:
Mind you all teams are vulnerable to losing players in the early games, if anything the agile tier 1 teams suffer more since their players are almost as easy to kill but often cost twice as much as 40K fodder.

Yes, but a tier 1 team can play easily with a journeymen. A tier 3 team can't. Could you say the opposite? Have you try?

Quote:
So I don’t think this is something that needs fixing, there are already ways to mitigate this somewhat as I’ve explained above. Ultimately some coaches aren’t suited to non-tier 1 teams, if you don’t like getting beaten up and suffering a high turnover then stick to the bashers.

I disagree. I have played a lot of team, both tier 1 and tier 3. A tier 1 team is designed to be played with 11 players, and if she hasn't, she has journeymen. A tier 3 team is designed to be played with more than 11 (usually 12-13), and if she hasn't, she cry.

This is my point of vue. And, yes, i 've try a lot of team.


It depends on the team, Dwarfs or Skaven can do quite well with journeymen. But if a team like Necros of Nurgle loses expensive players early on then they will really struggle. They can’t start with a full team and have rubbish journeymen so will have a hard time recovering.

I’ve gone 1 better and have played 20+ games for and against with all 21 official teams in lrb4 on FUMBBL. There was no journeymen rule then so you’d have to play with less than 11 players if you took a kicking. And you really needed to start with FF 7+ to keep the money coming in and find games easier so could afford less players.

But again, all the tier 2/3 teams have cheap 0-16 players. So if you don’t like playing with 11 then there is a solution, start with less re-rolls of positionals. Also keep your TV low and use inducement money to take extra apoths and/or mercs and stars.

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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:45 pm 
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If you want to fix Journeymen you need to use the same player for every roster. That player shouldn't be that good either. Maybe a Human lineman with 2 ST or a Halfling without Dodge. I recently played against a dwarf coach with two journeymen and he didn't miss a beat. Give him weaker players to bring his roster up to 11. If a team is missing players from his roster there should be a drop off from the player replaced.


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 Post subject: Re: Journeyman rule variant.
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:48 am 
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I vote journeymen snotlings! For all teams.

Thanks for reminding me of the Glory days of 3rd Edition Death Zone. How many players do you have this game? Umm... 1, 2, 3, 4. Yup. 4. Let's rumble!

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