Nippon Team

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Eruletho
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Eruletho »

0-12 Ashigaru Defenders (or Linemen) 5338 G/ASP 50k
0-4 Samurai (Blitzers) 5339 Side Step, Fend GS/AP 80k
0-2 Ninja (Runners) 7337 Side Step, Jump Up, Leap, Stab GA/PS 110k
0-2 Sumo (Blockers) 4427 Stand Firm, Fend, Thick Skull GS/AP 120k
0-1 Oni 4529 Loner, Wild Animal, Claws, Horns, Thick Skull S/GAP 160k

I had mentioned before that I was worried about fend on the linemen, so I don't feel bad removing it to stop the "skills on everything" feeling.

For the Oni, I agree with the most recent reccomendations, so the applicable changes have been made.

I like the ninjas where they are, without going haywire on them with the AG4, because that with the ST4 sumo would break the "no ST4 and AG4 on the same team (except vampires)" rule of custom teambuilding. I can't really justify ST3 sumos with the model's size and the actual strength of the inspiration of the model (real sumo wrestlers) as easily as I can justify AG3 ninjas, as they are human. Then again, the same argument could be makde for the ST4 sumos, that they are just human. You can only have the two sumo and two ninja, so it's still possible to throw AG4 back on, but with leap on them at start, AG4 is a bit much, and I like the thematic feel of leap. A leaping, stabbing, hard to shake off assassin sounds exactly like a ninja to me. Possible routes of advancement are the obvious dodge/block, then as you said, strip ball, multi-block on a double for a stabby-stabby assassin, or the other likely routes, One thing to think about, though, with the advancement of ninjas without passing access, is that even with agility, they may not be the primary ball carriers, True, they are fast, but other than the ninjas, theres nothing "fast" about this team. This is a cageing, immobile, slow team that happens to have a pair of quick positionals. If I were running this team in an actual league, I would max out the positionals and cage up, using an AG3 samurai to actually carry the ball, giving it block at the first opportunity and using the sumo and other samurai to cage the carrier up. The ninja are available on D to pop the ball loose with leap, but aren't really durable enough to advance down the field without support. They would be slow to skill up, since they would be stabbing against lightly armored foes somewhat more often than blocking before they get a skill up for block, and stabs dont give SPP. They are actually just as fragile as the under-rated dark elf assassin, a piece I have always wanted to use and never could really justify with the far better carrying (blitzers/runners) and blitzing (blitzers/witches) options that team has. On this team, they are the only fast piece, so could be used for carrying or blitzing more often, and have far more a home than their elf counterparts.

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Eruletho
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Eruletho »

Any other thoughts anyone?

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Chris
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Chris »

Out of curiosity why move 5?

You should also think what a starting team would look like compared to the other common starting line ups, and if you applied a likely spread of SPPs what the team would look like after 10 games compared to others...

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Shteve0
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Shteve0 »

Those linemen are very poor value and very bland... they have none of the roster's defining characteristics or traits and don't function in sync with the positionals. Add to that, the roster is slightly in danger of becoming overcomplicated... I honestly think you need to be looking at a maximum of three skills on any one positional, or if you go to four don't go beyond a maximum of two on the other positions. If you put a skill on the linos (and I would in your shoes) make sure you replicate it across at least two of the positions so you don't lose the theme.

eg

5338 fend
5339 fend, sidestep
7337 fend, sidestep, stab, leap
4428 sidestep, stand firm
... Oni....

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Eruletho
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Eruletho »

0-12 Ashigaru Defenders (or Linemen) 5338 G/ASP 50k
0-4 Samurai (Blitzers) 5339 Side Step, Fend GS/AP 80k
0-2 Ninja (Runners) 7337 Fend, Jump Up, Leap, Stab GA/PS 110k
0-2 Sumo (Blockers) 4427 Stand Firm, Fend, Thick Skull GS/AP 120k
0-1 Oni 4529 Loner, Wild Animal, Claws, Horns, Thick Skull S/GAP 160k

The move 5 is to keep the linemen from outpacing the team's real backbone - the Samurai and Sumo. The theme I started with is a slow moving, hard to chain-block team with a pair of free-moving multi-taskers in the ninja. The move 5 linemen support that by being somewhat slower than normal.

I'm still wary of fend on the linemen. No skills on a lineman doesn't bother me, as they are basically slower human linemen. In fact, the last roster had fend on it, and I took it off to keep from having skills on all the players (though Ive been rethinking that, as amazons, dwarves, and norse at least all have their basic team skills (Dodge, Block/Thick Skull, and Block, respectively, and Fend is pretty much this team's theme skill) and I'd be ready to leave it on if some others think it should be left on.

The thick skull on the sumo is to mildly counteract AV7 on a blocker piece, so if anything (and I'd rather not) I'd ditch stand firm. I almost don't consider thick skull a skill, similar to regeneration. Giving the ninja Fend vs sidestep makes the team a bit more coherent, though sidestep would be more thematic. It also opens up a new skill for ninja to develop into, as now they can (or really should) take sidestep later on.

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Eruletho
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Eruletho »

Now that I think we have a somewhat finalized roster, I want to look at some starting line-ups and possibly make tweaks, if needed, based on them being too overpowered or underpowered.
The roster:
0-12 Ashigaru Defenders (or Linemen) 5338 G/ASP 50k
0-4 Samurai (Blitzers) 5339 Side Step, Fend GS/AP 80k
0-2 Ninja (Runners) 7337 Fend, Jump Up, Leap, Stab GA/PS 110k
0-2 Sumo (Blockers) 4427 Stand Firm, Fend, Thick Skull GS/AP 120k
0-1 Oni 4529 Loner, Wild Animal, Claws, Horns, Thick Skull S/GAP 160k
Rerolls - 60k (for now)

TV 1000 starting team 1 (positional heavy)
3 Ashigaru (150k)
4 Samurai (320k)
2 Ninja (220k)
2 Sumo (240k)
1 Reroll (60k)
10k banked

The lack of core skills with only 1 reroll makes this an extremely risky starting line-up, and you also don't have an apothecary for your fragile but expensive positionals (sumo and ninja), but you start with every positional but the big guy

TV 1k starting team 2 (Strength Heavy)
1 Oni (160k)
2 Sumo (240k)
3 Samurai (240k)
5 Ashigaru (250k)
2 Reroll (100k)
10k banked

This gives you your Oni and both Sumo at the start, but removes your ninja and places all the ball carrying responsibilities on your samurai, and you're even missing one. Still disliking the lack of re-rolls on this starting team, so let's try to cut more slack and see what we can get.

TV 1k starting team 3 (Re-roll bias)
3 Samurai (240k)
2 ninja (220k)
6 ashigaru (300k)
4 Rerolls (240k)

Extremely slim on positionals, with no real strength to speak of, but plenty of rerolls to use on failed skill-reliant actions.

TV 1k starting team 4 (Balance achieved?)
4 Samurai (320k)
2 Ninja (220k)
5 Ashigaru (250k)
3 Reroll (180k)
30k banked

The standard number of rerolls for a regular team, plus all your blitzers and runners already purchased. Possibly the best option to go with.

I can't figure out a broken TV1k roster that would completely stomp any team out there, but there are a couple competitive ones (at least 4 and 2 have a good chance, depending on what kind of opposition you run into). I think the team is a solid teir two team, maybe a little lower based on their complete lack of starting skills. Any other comments?

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garion
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by garion »

personally I think the roster has way too many starter skills. There is no need for that many, also Ninjas have to be ag4.

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by plasmoid »

I kind of like the look of this team.
I can understand the linemen not having fend.
And I can understand Ninjas not having AG4. They've got skills. They're human.
So I'm on board with the general design.

That said, I think you still have skill bloat.

Here's a test:
Take the 11 most powerful players the team can put on the pitch.
Assuming that they're priced right, the value for most teams (IIRC) of their best 11 is between 850K-950K.
Yours come out at 1040K.

I'd hack Jump Up off the Ninjas. He can develop that soon enough. 100K.
I'd hack Thick Skull off the Sumos. AV8 is neater. I think he'd be costed properly that at 100 or 110 - given that fend and stand firm overlap.
I'd seriously consider giving the Samurai AV8. And I'd really brutalize the Oni. Either the team doesn't need one. Or his statline could do with some big cuts. ST4 perhaps?

Cheers
Martin

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Xadie
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Xadie »

Eruletho wrote: 0-12 Ashigaru Defenders (or Linemen) 5338 G/ASP 50k
0-4 Samurai (Blitzers) 5339 Side Step, Fend GS/AP 80k
0-2 Ninja (Runners) 7337 Fend, Jump Up, Leap, Stab GA/PS 110k
0-2 Sumo (Blockers) 4427 Stand Firm, Fend, Thick Skull GS/AP 120k
0-1 Oni 4529 Loner, Wild Animal, Claws, Horns, Thick Skull S/GAP 160k
Rerolls - 60k (for now)
I don't know in which kind of environment you'd like to play with your team but I predict on a perpetual or any long running league (50+ games) the team will implode. Both Ninja and Sumo are huge liabilities. AV7 is bad - actually very very bad. They don't start with core defense skills and cost a lot which will lead to some serious gold drain and underdevelopment on the long run. On top of it I actually would never recruit Ninjas as they have way too much skill bloat while adding relative little for its price tag in terms of game strength.

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Mantis
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Mantis »

As a Lurker who wandered into this forum, I tentatively offer my old joke version of the Nippon team for comparative purposes.


Nippon

0-12 Ashi 30000 6337 Know your place
G access Doubles Ag
Ashigaru may not carry or throw the ball into the opposing half. If they involuntarily catch a scatter (-2 chance, as with interception) or are blocked there they instantly go to reserves in shame, as if KOed. If they return to the field then they will gain frenzy for the rest of the game but if they don't gain SPP they must be cut from the team. Involuntarily scoring a TD is probably instant execution....

0-4 Sam 70000 6338 Dauntless GS
0-1 Ninja 70000 6337 Shadowing Stab A
0-2 Sumo 110000 4427 Wrestle Stand Firm Thick Skull
S Doubles G
0-2 Warrior Monk 70000 7337 Frenzy G
0-1 Oni 120,000 5528 Claw Frightful Appearance Foul Luck (No use of rerolls on Oni or in adjacent spaces by his own team. Opponents are treated as if they had Loner. Furthermore, at the start of game roll a dice, 2-6 you lose a re-roll, on a 1 your opponent does! You must have a re-roll to use an Oni) S access

RR60

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Fassbinder75
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Fassbinder75 »

Eruletho wrote:Now that I think we have a somewhat finalized roster, I want to look at some starting line-ups and possibly make tweaks, if needed, based on them being too overpowered or underpowered.
The roster:
0-12 Ashigaru Defenders (or Linemen) 5338 G/ASP 50k
0-4 Samurai (Blitzers) 5339 Side Step, Fend GS/AP 80k
0-2 Ninja (Runners) 7337 Fend, Jump Up, Leap, Stab GA/PS 110k
0-2 Sumo (Blockers) 4427 Stand Firm, Fend, Thick Skull GS/AP 120k
0-1 Oni 4529 Loner, Wild Animal, Claws, Horns, Thick Skull S/GAP 160k
Rerolls - 60k (for now)
Big time thread necro.

Why do the Ashigaru have to be different to normal Human linemen? They are overpriced at 50k.
The Samurai are OK, but Fend is a pretty boring skill.
The Ninja's have way too much going on, they are paying for a bunch of skills they can't all reasonably utilise.
Sumo are horrible. 120k is 10k more than a Flesh Golem which has AV9 and Regen. These guys need a total do over.
The Oni is like an angry expensive Troll. He might have a nice skill package but 160k is a lot to pay for a big guy with such little range. Even if you manage the 4+ move roll he may still struggle to get in range.

I don't feel like a new team should have to be weak in order to quell cries of "over powered". This side construction is too slanted towards fluff/theme and not enough towards a coherent roster. If we consider how precise and technical the Japanese stereotype is, how come this side has no Block or Tackle to represent that? Also almost all the players are overpriced.

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Roi Lorcan
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Roi Lorcan »

Hello everyone !

I come back to this topic with my own version of this Nippon roster:

0-16 Ashigaru (50k) 6 3 3 7 Wrestle G(ASP)
0-2 Ronin (90k) 7 3 3 8 Wrestle GS(AP)
0-2 Sumo (100k) 3 4 2 8 Wrestle, Stand firm, Grab GS(AP)
0-2 Ninja (120k) 8 2 4 7 Wrestle, Jump up, Dodge, Stab A(GSP)
Rerolls 60k

or with the "no ST4 with AG4" rule :

0-16 Ashigaru (50k) 6 3 3 7 Wrestle G(ASP)
0-4 Ronin (90k) 7 3 3 8 Wrestle GS(AP)
0-2 Ninja (120k) 8 2 4 7 Wrestle, Jump up, Dodge, Stab A(GSP)
0-1 Oni (130k) 4 5 2 8 Loner, Wild animal, Horns, Mighty blow, Thick skull S(GAP)
Rerolls 60k


The idea is to have a full wrestle team representing the nipponese martial art.

What do you think about it ?

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