Nippon Team

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Eruletho
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Eruletho »

The reason for passing on the ninjas was to give the team the option to create passers of the ninjas and receivers from the samurai, but restricting them to running works just as well.

0-12 Ashigaru Defenders (or Linemen) 5338 G/ASP 50k
0-4 Samurai (Blitzers) 5339 Block GS/AP 80k
0-2 Ninja (Runners) 7337 Dodge, Leap, Stab GA/PS 100k
0-2 Sumo (Blockers) 4427 Stand Firm, Fend, Thick Skull GS/AP 110k
0-1 Temple Statue 351(10) Loner, Stand Firm, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Bone Head S/GAP 120k

If we were to consider a change to an Oni instead of the statue, how about:
0-1 Oni 4529 Loner, Wild Animal, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull SM/GAP 130k
In the images of nippon warhammer Oni I've found, some of them have horns, some have claws, some have tails, they are all very different. Mutation access lets them grow to match that. Giving them mutation makes them able to become quite powerful, which makes Wild Animal more balancing than Bone Head (though having done little research on WH Oni, not sure what the better lore option would be.

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Smurf »

animosity is the pride and distrust between different social groups.

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garion
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by garion »

Oni has claws and horns, they should probably have M access anyway as they are lesser daemons of chaos. Drop the Temple Statue completely these guard the Mountains of Heaven in Cathay and are inanimate creatures until the lands are threatened, then they come alive, they are very similar in a lot of ways to Ushabti of Khemri.

Ninjas have to be ag4 imo. I would drop animosity as I don't think it has any place in this team really.

Sumos again have never featured in Nippon fluff, though I do think that could be excused as Nippon is so obviously Japan and they are a prominent part of the culture. However if you stick to the fluff that actually exists already then the other options you could have are warrior monks. however i would probably drop the sumos from your team -

0-12 Ashigaru Defenders (or Linemen) 6338 G/ASP 50k
0-4 Samurai (Blitzers) 6339 Block GS/AP 90k
0-2 Ninja (Runners) 7247 Dodge, Leap, Stab GA/PS 90k
0-1 Oni 5 5 1 8 Horns, Claw, Thick Skull, Frenzy, Juggernaut S/GAPM 180k

somthing like this.

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Shteve0
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Shteve0 »

Very dull. Do something new, like focus entirely on positioning skills, and then overlap them. You don't have much, but you do have SURPRISE!!!

0-16 Lineman 6338 Fend 60k G/ASP
0-2 Ninja 6337 Side Step, Fend, Jump Up 90k GA/SP
0-2 Samurai 7338 Side Step, Stab 90k GS/AP
0-2 Sumo 4428 Side Step, Stand Firm 100k GS/AP

Add rerolls and a big guy to taste. Just please, don't keep banging the same Block/Dodge drum, it's so predictable. The challenge is not in putting AG4 and ST4 on the same roster, or plastering Block and Dodge where it'll be powerful; it's in showing restraint and developing a new position or team theme that doesn't exist in the game already, and then leaving development options open thereafter.

So, the above roster might not be anything like what you originally "found", but it's themed; basically every skill empowers you to actively effect the outcome of push/knock down push results and their positioning thereafter. In the case of the Sumo they overlap so that the player may choose to remain where they are or move to any other available space - disincentive indeed to punch them if you're not assured of the outcome.

Just try and find a design space that's yet to be explored and go there; the way it's been headed up to now has already been done to death, and the rosters bring nothing new to the party. If your point is just to use the figs from Impact, use them as Orcs. If it's to come up with something unique, you really need to be looking for a concept and away from the skills that already crop up again and again.

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by dode74 »

You don't have much, but you do have SURPRISE!!!
Surely this would be the Spanish Inquisition team?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Shteve0 »

No, I mean the ninjas. And stop calling me Shirley.

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by garion »

the problem with that one is it would not feel like you are playing with ninjas etc...

like when you play with Gutter Runners they move and interact like that player should. Same with Dwarves, they are slow and hard. If this game has av7 dwarves with ma 10. I doubt it would have been quiet so popular. Obviously you haven't gone to that extreme but somethings must be. Building a team based on the fluff is the most important factor, first and foremost then tweak it so it is not too good or too bad.

Ninjas have to be Ag4 they simply have to be. They trained the Guttter Runners in ninjitsu after all, they should probably be Ma8 as well really, though that could be one of those smaller tweaks for balance reasons.

the rest is okay though, although I don't think having Side Step on a sumo makes too much sense, Stand Firm, Fend and Wrestle are the skills I could see making sense there.

The problem with a Nippon team will always be how you balance the ag4 ninjas in with everything else.

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Shteve0 »

Yeah, you got me - suggesting that humans be AG3 *is* comparable to suggesting dwarfs be MA10 (sheesh! :roll: ).

As for the training thing, I could [conceivably] teach a dog to chase a rabbit at 60mph or a seal to dive hundreds of meters in icy waters for fish, neither of which would mean I'm capable of doing so myself. Does anyone seriously imagine Mister Miyagi or Master Splinter to be physically stronger or physically more agile than their proteges? Didn't think so.

You really need to look at the issue more laterally and less literally. Eastern hand combat is not about being purely physically more muscular or developed than your opponent, a big part of the object is to outwit and outmaneuver them; to counter their counter and exert only a small amount of force at the point at which your opponent is most vulnerable.

I have no attachment to the roster I offered up, but I would suggest that, for my money, it offers far more by way of subtelty than the other rosters proferred, themselves more Arnie than Bruce Lee. Those other rosters will punch you in the face, yes, and it will hurt. Mine will wait for you to try to punch it in the face, but will then trip you over, steal your wallet and make a sage crack about your prowess when you inevitably miss.

On a serious point, I've aimed for a roster that forces your opponent to pick their fights, as any over-reach alongside a strategic weakness (however slim) is likely to be exploited, potentially with an ST4 or stab player right in the mix. That, for me, is the common element of the three martial arts/disciplines prescribed to the positionals, and that's what I've sought to achieve. With the Sumo, they never have to sacrifice board position, and can improve it more often than not; it's an immensely powerful proposition, and I would suggest that based on what little I know of the sport, very thematic.

But, you know, whatever.

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by garion »

calm down, I'm not saying its rubbish, I think most of it is okay, I also like some of the ideas and understand that bringing something new to the game is an important part of design, but Ninjas have to be ag4 as much as dwarves have to be slow.

also worth bearing in mind is there is an existing Nipponesse Ninja player... Hoshi Komi 8 3 4 7 Catch,Dodge,Leap

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Nippon Team

Post by Shteve0 »

Worry not, old bean, I'm fookin' zen :) And as I said, you'd be welcome to tear that roster to pieces, it took me 5 minutes to poop out and is largely there to demonstrate how I would approach building a team around a ninja concept.

What I'm getting at is that I can see no reason why a given human would need to be AG4 as opposed to AG3+skills.

I'm not sure why you think Hoshi is relevant either.
(a) he's gone
(b) star players' stats don't represent the underlying positional very accurately. Griff is a human blitzer at 8448, it doesn't follow that human blitzers have ST4 or AG4.
(c) Hoshi Komi is a human catcher, not a nipponese ninja. And he's wearing fencing gear. Yeah, would be great to bring him back, fo shizzle, but let's not get carried away by the stats of some fluffy star player from the annals of BB history.

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Eruletho »

Ok, so this is where I'm at now:

0-12 Ashigaru Defenders (or Linemen) 5338 Fend G/ASP 50k
0-4 Samurai (Blitzers) 5339 Side Step, Fend GS/AP 80k
0-2 Ninja (Runners) 7337 Side Step, Jump Up, Leap, Stab GA/PS 110k
0-2 Sumo (Blockers) 4427 Stand Firm, Fend, Thick Skull GS/AP 120k
0-1 Oni 4529 Loner, Wild Animal, Claws, Horns, Thick Skull SM/GAP 130k

Giving the Oni claws at start is basically the same as giving it MB, it just changes which skill gets picked up second (as it will probably be the other of the two skills) and Claw is generally weaker than MB anyway (MB is always useful, Claw is only good against AV8+). I like Fend on the linemen, but fear that it'll make them TOO powerful, as they are just basic linos. The samurai feel good with either block or SS/Fend, but not both, so to make the roster feel more unique I did away with the re-roll skills (dodge is gone from the ninja too). The Sumo felt right where he was, with SF/Fend rather than SS, since he's supposed to be the team's immovable object that the line centers around. The Ninja... I will not make him AG4 again. AG4 and ST4 on the same team will lead directly to a broken roster. They don't have to be as agile as the rats to have taught the rats, after all, just more skillful. Jump up and Leap makes the ninja MORE movable than a GR to start, since they are speed 7 from prone, not just already standing. Stab is flavorful for the ninja, but also gives the team a legitimate threat against low-armored targets at the start of the game (since there is no block on the team now) and Side Step seems to fit the ninja well.

This roster is very good at controlling where it is on the table, with up to 6 sidesteppers at the start, two with stand firm, and AT LEAST 8 fend players on a starting roster, blocking against this team is going to be a strategic nightmare for anything that hasn't skilled up to specifically control, the field (Juggernaut and Grab come to mind as this team's real counters). The ninjas are AWESOME pieces, but not ludicrously so, since they lack dodge and are only AG3. They can make some amazing things happen, especially if they get a +AG later, but for now rival the basic GR for running effectiveness. The Oni feels like a better Minotard now, and that isn't what I wanted for him. Perhaps Disturbing Presence to reflect the terror they can inflict on their opponents?

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Shteve0 »

If I were you I'd drop the M access on the big guy and up him 10k in price. He already has the Claw and Horns, and tentacles is the next best M skill for him which feels decidedly unfluffy. I'd also drop Leap from the Ninja and cut the price 10k, it's just not worth it on an AG player and Sidestep does the same job thematically. Final change I'd make is to up the AV on the sumo to 8 and drop Fend for Side Step, leaving the cost as is.

Just a point of note, the SS+SF on the Sumo was an intentional redundancy I put in to equip them to present a unique challenge for your opponent. A Stand Firm blocker is okay, a Stand Firm AND Side Step blocker is something else entirely and a unique proposition. You essentially have total control over their positioning, well worth the premium over a black orc, though still lack the meat and drink skills of Block, Guard, MB etc to prevent them becoming insane too quickly. SF+Fend lacks interaction without SS. SF+SS with GS/AP access might add Fend to offer the ultimate cocktail, but requires passing over a power skill in order to do so.

One more thing you may wish to consider:
0-2 Ninja 7237 Dodge, Jump Up, Sidestep, Stab c.100k. You weaken the player by making him more tempting to block (ST2), but with SS, Dodge and Jump up he's the kind of player that will squirm though to where he can most easily stab the opponent (and can stab on a 4+ from prone without using the team's blitz). It shoud play out as a piece that's just as dangerous prone as not, and is more capable of escaping for the score with built in dodge. Just an idle idea to mull over. Also becomes a brutal player with +AG, Block (normal skill) or Multiple Block (doubles skill).

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garion
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Re: Nippon Team

Post by garion »

Shteve0 wrote:(c) Hoshi Komi is a human catcher, not a nipponese ninja.
he was a human catcher in a positional sense, but he was also a nipponesse ninja, it said he was a ninja on the star player card.

I just don't see the point in attempting this roster if you aren't going to have ag4 ninjas.

Seems like a waste of time really.

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Hitonagashi »

Eruletho wrote:Ok, so this is where I'm at now:

0-12 Ashigaru Defenders (or Linemen) 5338 Fend G/ASP 50k
0-4 Samurai (Blitzers) 5339 Side Step, Fend GS/AP 80k
0-2 Ninja (Runners) 7337 Side Step, Jump Up, Leap, Stab GA/PS 110k
0-2 Sumo (Blockers) 4427 Stand Firm, Fend, Thick Skull GS/AP 120k
0-1 Oni 4529 Loner, Wild Animal, Claws, Horns, Thick Skull SM/GAP 130k
See, isn't this more flavourful than a bland positional mashup :).

I agree with Shteve about the Oni not needing M access. Tents really doesn't feel right on him. I also agree with him about bumping the price up. This is fundamentally better than the mino in every way, but costs less? I think this wouldn't be undercosted at 150-160k, let alone 130k.

However, I'd say keep Leap on the Ninja. One thing I learnt fairly early is that weaker players enjoy using fluffy skills. Sure, expert players probably won't use leap that much, but it will keep the 'feel' of the roster for newer players intact.

The one thing I'd warn you about is that you might be starting to suffer from the other rookie teambuilder profile..."SKILLS ON EVERYTHING". This is where you discover that you can produce almost any effect you like with the right skills to fit the fluff. Most rosters do not have a ton of skills, and by giving them to players early, you limit their development. For example, let's take the Ninja. First skill Block/Dodge, second skill the other one. Then what? I could see Tackle/Strip Ball (comboed with wrestle instead of block). Blodge/DT? Usually you have Sidestep and Jump Up in the skill path for G/A players, and giving the ninja both to start with limits his future development options. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing! You can say the same for the Block/Dodge/Leap of the Wardancer...but...be careful :).

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Re: Nippon Team

Post by Chris »

I think it is good to have a defining positional,with a theme. So if you were ninja crazy have 0-4 ninjas with something 'cool', 0-2 blitzers, 0-2 blockers. The 'coolest' thing in the long term is a higher stat, the best in the short term is an odd combo of skills.

I have resisted sticking in a list as there are enough about, but I will sucum to illistrate the above
So say you were ninja crazy the following would give a very odd base for long term growth. Also no g access as I thought they were assasins not warriors. Ag 4 to make them the best player though really ag 3 is just as fun, though here you start being able to buy everything you want in the team as they get cheaper. Would have thought 7/3/3/7 or 6/3/4/7 to give different development paths, with the latter being stronger.
0-4 Ninja 6/3/4)/7, Leap, Stab AP/GS
0-2 Blitzer (Samurai) 7/3/3/ Block GS/AP
Just a human blitzer. Alternatively can do av 9 if you think they need a boost overall as a team, but int eh fantasy context they don't really have better armour than the empire.
0-2 Blocker (Sumo) 5/3/3/7 Wrestle, Thick Skull, S/GAP
Progression there would be things like jugganaught, mighty blow, stand firm etc.
0-16 Lineman (Ashiwhatever) 6/3/3/8 G/APS
No need to do anything special with them, they are unlikely to be different to a standard lineman.

They are a human team so would have similarities to humans. You could instead put emphasis on the blitzers, or the blockers (hell 8/2/3/7 stab would also be a believable ninja, there is a wide way to interpret them). I don't think though it is wise to change all three and the lineman as now you have a team more different to standard humans than many other species!

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