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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:13 am 
Da Spammer
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A human team still has to field 10 humans. An orc team still has to field 6 orcs. I didn't mention linemen, I mentioned race.
Chaos do ok at low TV and get better ( in relation to other teams ) as TV increases, and you've made a team that's better than that.

But you obviously dont want feedback, so if you're happy with them, and you have or find a league happy with them then that's great, but I wouldn't allow them into any league I ran in their current form.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:22 am 
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Oh I'm happy for the feedback. I just wish it was more constructive.

I do see some suggestions, and I'm happy for those, but honestly I just don't see the issue with some of the complaints. The troll is so much more OP than the Minotaur? Really? I just don't see Really Stupid being better than Wild Animal. Horns make the Minotaur a great blitzer. Both get mutations, so that is a wash... So it's Thick skull and Frenzy vs regeneration and the different start blocks. I don't know, if the troll is whats breaking the team, I suppose it could be switched back to a 'taur.

My original post states that these have been playtested. In a league format. With the Tzeentch team. We played 12 games along with a mid season game for the Spike Trophy, then the semi finals and finals. I was not a team that made it to the playoffs.

In the end, this team wasn't any nastier than any of the others, and certainly didn't dominate at any time. It may be that I never did the CPOMB combo for any of my players, but maybe that's because that's not the way I play.

This isn't the only forum I've thrown these up on, some people like them, some people think they are a crap idea, some think they are far too overpowered (hence the undivided list), so the reaction all over is mixed but I'm finding mostly negative.

That's fine, it just means they are crap, OP, really good, a stupid idea, or just that it's something new that people don't feel is needed for the game.

It's ok, I just had an idea that I wanted to share with the community. If no one likes it? Oh well, at least we're sitting around talking Blood Bowl.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:26 am 
Da Spammer
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5 lists of which there's 1 team in one league for 12 games does not play testing make. You need multiple teams of each list, in multiple leagues over a wide variety of TV ranges to claim they're "play tested".
And I'm not sure how it can be "more constructive".

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:55 am 
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Quote:
My original post states that these have been playtested. In a league format. With the Tzeentch team. We played 12 games along with a mid season game for the Spike Trophy, then the semi finals and finals. I was not a team that made it to the playoffs.
That is not "playtesting". That is a couple of games. Playtesting would involve hundreds, if not thousands, of games.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:16 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
That is not "playtesting". That is a couple of games. Playtesting would involve hundreds, if not thousands, of games.

Hold on, you realize this is a GW game right? I'm fairly sure my one league experience meets their rigorous playtesting standards.

But if not, then I guess we better get started. :D

Sorry if my posts seem a little salty. Like I mentioned before, this isn't the only forum I've posted these on and some other commenters have been less than, "civil" if we can put it that way.

I may have temporarily experienced the condition known as:

Image

But I realize now that when you ask people for their opinions, you just might get them.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:49 pm 
Legend
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Lordhelmawr wrote:
I understand the point of contention with minimum marauders on the field, but other rosters do the same thing with their linemen positions. How many linemen do you have to put on the field when playing Orcs? Exactly 0. Humans? 0. Linemen have never defined a team (halflings and goblins excluded).

This at least makes you put marauders on the field, and they will be the spares on your roster for in game casualties, so maybe you leave a beastman or two in the dugout during league play to help them skill up. Besides, Chaos Warriors are just Marauders who have found the favor of the gods and been gifted with Chaos Armor fluffwise.


I think perhaps you should have started differently? The title was chaos marauders, so I think people expected to see teams built around them, as opposed to a more efficient and slightly better Chaos team.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:02 pm 
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Lordhelmawr wrote:
The troll is so much more OP than the Minotaur? Really?


Yes. Essentially the troll is great at sitting around and getting hit. The most successful long term Chaos teams don't have mino's because of the unreliability. But trolls, just stick them on the front line and they are a cheap, very tough, punching bag.

Quote:
That's fine, it just means they are crap, OP, really good, a stupid idea, or just that it's something new that people don't feel is needed for the game.


I think it is more a theme issue. Adding marauders to the chaos teams warriors and beastmen is a boost, but it doesn't seem to add much theme. And not enough to get 5 teams out of it. By all means say we are boosting Chaos because in a 10 or so game league they don't do well (they don't, they really need skills and then they become good).

Using marauders adjusted for a chaos power with a few warriors does have more theme, you can do the different powers etc.

Or you could just do each of the chaos powers and one of those can be marauders.

I have always liked

Undivided - Chaos Pact
Khorne - Current Chaos team
Nurgle - Nurgle Rotters
Tzentch
Idea is you can start with every single mutation in the game

0-16 50k Cultists 6/3/3/7 GM/APS
0-2 90k Tzeentch Blitzer 6/3/3/8 Claws, horns GSM/AP
0-2 100k Tzeentch Blocker 5/4/2/8 Prehensile Tail, Tentacles GSM/AP
0-2 90k Tzeentch Runner 6/3/3/8 Big Hand, Two Heads GPM/SA
0-2 90k Tzeentch Catcher 7/3/3/7 Extra Arms, Very Long Legs GAM/SP
0-1 110k Tzeentch Spawn 4/5/2/9 Loner, Really Stupid, Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Regeneration MS/AGP
RR60k
Tzeentch spawns are horribly mutated confused beasts and are assumed the mutations work into their stats, still a few more heads and arms never hurt anyone if they get more mutations!
Tzeentch Coach
A master of magic and mystery, with a sideline in football punditry and coaching, a Tzeentch coach is more than just a slave driver (owner and trader). Once per match, if not expelled for any reason, a Tzeentch coach can cast the Zapp! spell and attempt to turn an enemy player into a toad.
(Rules are the old Zapp! rules).
The cost for this chap is contained in the teams players who cost more than their stats suggest.

Slannesh - Stuff involving hypno gaze and disturbing presence I guess, maybe elves as the positionals.


Regardless, what is the theme you want? Warband from the chaos wastes? Then maybe be a bit more different, more pact like? Less of the Chaos team guys, more other options?

Would still swap the trolls for Ogres though. Trolls are solidly Orcs and gobbo's now.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:04 pm 
Legend
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Chris wrote:
Lordhelmawr wrote:
I understand the point of contention with minimum marauders on the field, but other rosters do the same thing with their linemen positions. How many linemen do you have to put on the field when playing Orcs? Exactly 0. Humans? 0. Linemen have never defined a team (halflings and goblins excluded).

This at least makes you put marauders on the field, and they will be the spares on your roster for in game casualties, so maybe you leave a beastman or two in the dugout during league play to help them skill up. Besides, Chaos Warriors are just Marauders who have found the favor of the gods and been gifted with Chaos Armor fluffwise.


I think perhaps you should have started differently? The title was chaos marauders, so I think people expected to see teams built around them, as opposed to a more efficient and slightly better Chaos team.


This is a key point. Back when 3rd edition came out then Chaos in WHFB were a mixture of warriors, beastmen and daemons and the Bloodbowl team reflected this. They didn't bother with daemons as they were a bit problematic.

Later on they split chaos into 3 separate lists and added troops like marauders to warriors of chaos. So I'd expect the team to have no beastmen and maybe no big guy, certainly beastmen would be in their own team.

I think your god related teams could do with a bit more variety as well, maybe some stat changes for the warriors and different big guys. A chaos spawn for nurgle, mino for khorne, clawed mino without MB for slaanesh and something else for Tzeentch??

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:13 pm 
Legend
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Really, if you want a marauder team, just use Chaos Pact with the BG of your choice. And skip the renegades, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:42 pm 
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New version of the roster with some important changes gleaned from playtesting.

Changed Chosen skills for Slaanesh and Nurgle.

Marauders can only mutate on doubles.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:10 pm 
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Have just seen this for the first time, and went back through the thread to understand where its come from. As such I know the point has been made before, but if it was me, I'd drop the beastmen out of all of the lists, but give the marauders mutation access on a normal role.

This would be because I'd rather see the marauder linemen take a more prominent role in the team. This is difficult if (once fully "positionaled" - not a word but I think it should be) there is only 2 slots left for them.

Instead, by having to field a minimum of 6, you need to diversify the various growth paths for them, and with only GM access by default, you might start to see them grow in different ways to maximise their effect.

However overall a nice idea!

Question:
Have you maintained the undivided team? If you were to follow the pattern where the Chosen had to cost 120K, what would the skill(s) for an Undivided team be?


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos Marauder Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:03 am 
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On the normal Chaos theam the CW seems to get 10k discount - why not keep that discount and have the new CW be at 110k?

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