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 Post subject: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:08 pm 
Emerging Star
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Development help and critique wanted
After four successful one day tournaments (4*6 games) with rules along these lines
(http://bloodbowl.dk/tournament-overview/price%20tag%202016%20-%20iv.html),
I have made some significant changes to the rule-set.

At this point this is what I have:

http://bloodbowl.dk/tournament-overview/price%20tag%20v%20-%20new%20generation.html

I would love some feed back. Especially on the perceived power level of the races. I am still in the process of adjusting the tiers.

Design
A few remarks about design is in order here I think. Mostly because some of the design decisions are likely to be counterintuitive.

The overall goals
- Make it viable to build a roster with several unusual skills
- Make all races playable in a competitive environment
- Make it as simple as possible while obtaining the two former

Minor goals
-Avoid situations where any skills, stats or combination is always picked or newer picked. (this rule is not absolute)
-Make multiple designs of the different rosters competitive
-Alow combinations of skills with as few restrictions as possible

Anomalies
-A few skills are under priced in order to manipulate the balance between the races. Most notably tackle and sure hands but also some mutations.
-Many skills are much more valuable on a specific player than on other players, say multiple block on an assassin, grab on a WE treeman, pro an vampires etc. These special cases are sometimes countered by counterintuitive pricing.

Feed back subjects
As mentioned my main problems right now are what tiers the races should be and the pricing of stats. So input as to what races are strongest and what races are weakest are much appreciated.

Starplayers
On a side note I am considering allowing starplayers. Thoughts on this are also appreciated.

Rosters
If you are interested I can send you some rosters that I have made to get a sense of the strength of the races for comparison.

Your Tournament
Should you be interested in using the rules at your own tournament you are most welcome to do so and I would like to hear from you.


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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:33 am 
Super Star
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Just at a glance:

I think you're overestimating the Norse, by tournament performance they seem to be more of a low-end tier one team or a high-end tier two, not in the same class as Undead or Wood Elf.

Your skill prices (intentionally?) seem to punish teams which usually buy a lot of one popular skill - Lizardmen tournament teams tend to buy a lot of Block, Dwarves and Amazons a lot of Guard, Dark Elves (and other elves) a lot of Dodge. I would expect these races to be less successful in your tournament rules.

I think it's very, very rare for a tournament team to take more than one Leader, so I'm not sure if Leader being a "star" skill makes any difference.

Interesting ruleset though.

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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:37 am 
Super Star
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Also, by "any table skill", do you mean skills which a player can normally only take on a doubles roll?

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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:01 pm 
Emerging Star
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rolo wrote:
Also, by "any table skill", do you mean skills which a player can normally only take on a doubles roll?


yes


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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:15 pm 
Emerging Star
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rolo wrote:
Just at a glance:

I think you're overestimating the Norse, by tournament performance they seem to be more of a low-end tier one team or a high-end tier two, not in the same class as Undead or Wood Elf.

Your skill prices (intentionally?) seem to punish teams which usually buy a lot of one popular skill - Lizardmen tournament teams tend to buy a lot of Block, Dwarves and Amazons a lot of Guard, Dark Elves (and other elves) a lot of Dodge. I would expect these races to be less successful in your tournament rules.

I think it's very, very rare for a tournament team to take more than one Leader, so I'm not sure if Leader being a "star" skill makes any difference.

Interesting ruleset though.


Thank you for your feed back

I kind of agree with you on norse. I think I'll put them in tier 1, but with all the block and block being so expensive there is a small voice telling me to be careful.

Yes I intentionally punish spamming of some skills. Mostly guard, but also side step, block, wrestle etc.

I think there are big individual differences in the mentioned teams. DEs have been doing great in Price tag I-IV and I am pretty sure they still will. Dwarfs are kept in tier 1 because they suffer form * on guard.

Zons znd other elfs are harder to place. Lizardmen are normally strongest with lost of block and will be forced to take untraditional skills but I still consider them very strong and they can benefit from many of the cheap skills. I am however considering moving them a tier down.

I will probably make an extra tier and make steps of +40k.

The * on leader is not about multiple leader it is about stacking leader. with no star almost every thrower picked will have leader. I don't want that situation so if you want other skills on your thrower you need two or to pay a little extra.


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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:57 am 
Super Star
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1. what about roster, like slanns or chaos, that have no block/wrestle for free at start?
do you think these team will be more competitive as tier0, even if they have +120000 (ie: only 1 wrestle and 2 block)

2. this kind of ruleset is actually making the woodelves even stronger, as all other power roster are affect.
(woodelves is a roster that don't need to buy duplicate skill, and that is used to buy some less popular skill like kick/stripball/etc...)

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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:48 am 
Super Star
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Some more thoughts:

- If you do allow Star Players, can a Star Player be a team's 11th player? Or do you need 11 players before hiring stars?

- babass, if I were playing Chaos in this format, I'd buy a lot more Wrestle (30k, no star) and some Juggernaut (20k, no star) as Block replacement.
Although I'd be very tempted to take Claw on a Minotaur for 30k. (100k would get me Claw+Piling On, paying double for each of those skills, but that's a steep marginal price to pay to upgrade the already awesome Claw+MB combination).

- What I find really interesting in this ruleset is that skill stacking is not banned, as it is in many tournaments - but a lot of the most popular "stacks" become prohibitively expensive.

I think the only real way to test this is playing it out and seeing for yourself. Maybe beforehand, you can ask a bunch of Blood Bowl power gamers to make out rosters for each race using this ruleset. Oh hi, TFF! ;)

If I were playing Chaos in this tournament:
1100k "Team Money:
4x Chaos Warriors (400k)
1x Minotaur (150k)
6x Beastman (360k)
2x Reroll (140k)
Apothecary (50k)

11 Players isn't ideal, but this team can hopefully deal more damage than it takes, and the Apoth really does help in tournaments.
Chaos is a tier 2 team and gets 300k to spend on "Skill Money"
Minotaur gets Claw (30k). This stacks well with his Mighty Blow and can hopefully help me win the attrition metagame.
Chaos Warrior gets Leader (40k). Because I have only two rerolls.
Wrestle/Tackle on a Beastman (50k)
Juggernaut/Frenzy on a Beastman (50k). The Sidelines are my playground.
Wrestle on three Chaos Warriors (90k). That hurts to even type but the 300k really isn't buying as much as you'd think.
Sure Hands/Big Hand on a Beastman (40k). There's my new ball carrier. I definitely need Sure Hands with only 2+Leader Rerolls. It's not optimal, but many of the good Ball Carrier skills besides Sure Hands (KoR, Extra Arms, Block, Dodge, Fend) are starred or expensive. Big Hand can be swapped out for Foul Appearance, or I could swap out the whole combo and get (Two Heads, Extra Arms) for the same price.

That's 8 skilled players, 3 unskilled Beastmen left over.

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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:05 pm 
Emerging Star
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:55 pm
Posts: 329
babass wrote:
1. what about roster, like slanns or chaos, that have no block/wrestle for free at start?
do you think these team will be more competitive as tier0, even if they have +120000 (ie: only 1 wrestle and 2 block)

2. this kind of ruleset is actually making the woodelves even stronger, as all other power roster are affect.
(woodelves is a roster that don't need to buy duplicate skill, and that is used to buy some less popular skill like kick/stripball/etc...)


1) I am unsure but the now very cheap mutations is one way to make chaos teams more competitive.

2) This is the reason sure hands, mighty blow and tackle are so cheap. Also Wardancers, WE catchers and Witch Elfs are not allowed to stack. Wood elf is hard to fit in to this rule set. but I have done a lot to try and balance it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:07 pm 
Emerging Star
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Posts: 329
I will be uploading an excel roster that calculates all cost for you automatically. So I hope someone will accept the challenge of building the overpowered rosters.

Note that this is the 5th Price tag tournament and even though the rules have changed there has been very few complaints so far. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:09 pm 
Veteran
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Random thought to hurt Wood Elves: How about reducing team money to 1050K?


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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:51 pm 
Emerging Star
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TV1100 and able to take leader it is almost always WEs game.
And pricing the best skills at a high cost, will only make the better (at tv1100) teams better. So I dont think the rules at a whole achieves: "Make all races competitive". Case in point: The winners have been: 2xdark elfs, Dwarfs and Slann (But Slann was by MissSweden, and he's a lucky guy that wins with all races.)

So if you want to change things around a bit more, instead maybe change the TV, so the standard power-gamey teams is undercut. (WE, UD, Liz & DE). Maybe disallow the Leader skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:17 pm 
Emerging Star
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Posts: 329
straume wrote:
Random thought to hurt Wood Elves: How about reducing team money to 1050K?


I will have to look in to this. That just might work.


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 Post subject: Re: Price Tag Rules
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:23 pm 
Emerging Star
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Bakunin wrote:
TV1100 and able to take leader it is almost always WEs game.
And pricing the best skills at a high cost, will only make the better (at tv1100) teams better. So I dont think the rules at a whole achieves: "Make all races competitive". Case in point: The winners have been: 2xdark elfs, Dwarfs and Slann (But Slann was by MissSweden, and he's a lucky guy that wins with all races.)

So if you want to change things around a bit more, instead maybe change the TV, so the standard power-gamey teams is undercut. (WE, UD, Liz & DE). Maybe disallow the Leader skill.


As stated I think reduced team-money might do the trick.

But I think you are to dogmatic and locked in your thinking. I agree that the WE roster is great and looks great with Price Tag Rules - But you will not in any other tournament I have heard of meet this much Block and Sure hand, Tackle or might blow and plenty of teams will have it all. Some will have POMB, frenzy or the like and a good ball carrier. That is very different from the average tournament.


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