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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:51 am 
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I think it would just require different tactics to be used against this Slaanesh team. Yes, with two AG5 Gazers, they can effectively open a hole in any line/cage that isn't backed up with other players. On the other hand, AV is relatively low across the board and MA is merely average. They don't have exceptional starting skills, nor especially good skill access. I think you guys are overstating how much of an advantage this one skill combination gives them, especially on only two players.

Did you guys ever playtest the 4 AG4 Daemonette roster? Did you not find that putting your Daemonettes next to Gazed players made them vulnerable to counterattack the following turn?

If I was playing against this team, I'd opt to start the game on defense. I'd aggressively target the Daemonettes and try to get them off the field. Anytime they used Gaze on me, I'd make a point of hitting them with a block immediately the following turn (which also has the advantage of removing Gaze's effect). On defense, I would use staggered lines to make it harder for them to make a hole for other teammates, or simply try to keep the ball outside of their movement range -- there are lots of teams who can use a pass/handoff to move the ball quickly across the field, leaving the Daemonettes out of position.

I'll playtest this roster and maybe I will find that 2 AG5 Gazers is too powerful. But you guys aren't making a compelling case just by saying it's too reliable.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:21 am 
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Sigh... Whereas you've been exceptional in your ability to convince others here, right?

You've heard arguments against it, and you don't believe them. That's fine - no point having an opinion if you don't believe it's the best one out there. I don't know how you think you'll be able to prove that having an AG 5 player on a team doesn't ruin the fun of the game, but I hope you and your opponents find a way to enjoy it.


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:34 pm 
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On a side note, does everybody consider Hypnotic Gaze to be essential for representing a Daemonette?
I consider it no more essential than Disturbing Presence.
I think the statline is a bit overdescribed.
And I think the Vampire team already has Gaze as it's thing, so you just risk transgressing on their USP.

An AG5 daemonette without Hypnotic Gaze would be a very interesting BB piece. Without the obvious problems.
IMO.
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Moraiwe wrote:
Sigh... Whereas you've been exceptional in your ability to convince others here, right?

You've heard arguments against it, and you don't believe them. That's fine - no point having an opinion if you don't believe it's the best one out there. I don't know how you think you'll be able to prove that having an AG 5 player on a team doesn't ruin the fun of the game, but I hope you and your opponents find a way to enjoy it.


You're right that I haven't been successful, but I've been trying. I have made multiple modifications to both rosters I suggested. I've increased prices, changed stats. Someone says "I'd take either of these over any of the other Chaos rosters" -- so I broke down all of the rosters, analyzed them on a position-by-position basis, and posted my conclusion that the other Chaos teams are at least comparable if not better. No one responds. Someone says "They break cages too well", so I listed a number of other teams who are similarly suited to breaking cages. Someone says "But there's no risk of getting hurt with Gaze", so I pointed out that it leaves you in open blocking position with an expensive AV7 player.

Lots of people say "that's too powerful", and I say "Okay, explain to me HOW it's too powerful." And that's what no one has done yet. I'm open to being convinced, but I'd like people to do more than just say "well, it's never been done before" or "it's too reliable". I don't see the point, particularly, in creating another team that is just duplicative of other teams. I'd like one that has a unique aspect. I'm willing to adjust that to make it balanced -- plasmoid's suggestion of leaving them as AG5 but without Gaze has some real merit and I'm thinking about it -- but I don't want to just throw it away simply because it's new.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:22 pm 
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plasmoid wrote:
On a side note, does everybody consider Hypnotic Gaze to be essential for representing a Daemonette?
I consider it no more essential than Disturbing Presence.
I think the statline is a bit overdescribed.
And I think the Vampire team already has Gaze as it's thing, so you just risk transgressing on their USP.

An AG5 daemonette without Hypnotic Gaze would be a very interesting BB piece. Without the obvious problems.
IMO.
Martin


That's a good point. Historically, though, the Daemonettes of Slaanesh have always been associated with this, though. The GW Daemonette web page even states: "Possessed of the hypnotic glamour for which all Daemons of Slaanesh are abhorred, they are vicious, merciless fighters who attack with astounding speed and grace." So I think that thematically, it fights with the Daemonettes as much or more than the Vampires.

But if that's the only way to balance them, removing either Gaze or AG5, then it's certainly an option that leaves them unique and distinct from other players. Perhaps substituting Disturbing Presence, which would at least not combo with enhanced AG, would be better.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:58 pm 
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The Hypnotic Gaze part is what I liked about the Daemonette. It's what opens up a different range of tactics than the usual team. But I've played against enough AG5 players to know how little I enjoy their ability to move through tacklzones. A reliable (ie. without negatrait) player with Hypnotic Gaze sounds fun, but not with AG5.


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:25 pm 
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plasmoid wrote:
On a side note, does everybody consider Hypnotic Gaze to be essential for representing a Daemonette?
I consider it no more essential than Disturbing Presence.
I think the statline is a bit overdescribed.
And I think the Vampire team already has Gaze as it's thing, so you just risk transgressing on their USP.

An AG5 daemonette without Hypnotic Gaze would be a very interesting BB piece. Without the obvious problems.
IMO.
Martin


I would say there is no point in fielding daemonettes if they dont have gaze.. Thats seems to be their stick.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:32 pm 
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plasmoid wrote:
I do like Bakunins [and mushoomys] roster.



Well from this diskussion, I take the positiv that there atleast is a small voice in the community that would like a slaanesh roster.

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