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 Post subject: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:13 pm 
Super Star
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So I've been looking at the Khorne and Nurgle rosters, and wanted to put something together for the other teams. I know this has been done before, but I had a few ideas of my own. I'm just looking for input from the community, not for people to evaluate my roster vs. other rosters that had come before.

I wanted to give them each a unique flavor, but have some consistent elements between rosters too. Cultists are the basic lineman position, equivalent to Pit Fighters or Rotters. Each has a beastman position (Slaangor/Tzaangor) that offers strength access and horns. Each has a lesser daemon with Regeneration and a greater daemon as a Big Guy, plus one other position that is unique to each roster: Dark Elf Cultists for Slaanesh and the Chaos Sorceror for Tzeentch, as befitting their Chaos Gods. And all Greater Daemons have Disturbing Presence, because, well, they're disturbing.


Slaaneshi Chaos Team

Qty Position MA ST AG AV Skills Cost Regular Doubles
0-12 Cultists 6 3 3 7 none 50'000 GM ASP
0-4 Slaangor 6 3 3 8 Horns 60'000 GSM AP
0-2 Dark Elf Cultist 6 3 4 7 none 70'000 GAM SP
0-2 Daemonette 6 3 5 7 Hypnotic Gaze, Claw, No Hands, Regenerate 140'000 GA SP
0-1 Keeper of Secrets 6 4 3 8 Loner, Wild Animal, Disturbing Presence, Claw, Horns, Regenerate 160'000 A GSP

Rerolls: 70k

Possible starting roster: 5 Cultists, 2 Slaangor, 2 Dark Elf Cultists, 2 Daemonettes, 3 Re-rolls, 0 FF

Thoughts: Daemonettes are AG5, which is new to Blood Bowl, but are discounted because they cannot be ball-handlers. They are even better at Hypnotic Gaze than Vampires, and can dodge into even multiple tackle zones with decent odds, making them good cagebreakers. Here is the rare team where you have both Strength access (Slaangors) and Agility (Dark Elf Cultists). However, those are both really just linemen positions from other teams. The KoS is a 4ST big guy, but blitzes at ST4. Wild Animal represents his debauched nature -- if it's not hurting someone else, it's probably pleasuring itself. Originally I had given the KoS Extra Arms, but after reviewing the models, those extra arms always end in Claws, so I think it wouldn't help ballhandling that much. Unlike most other Big Guys, the KoS is Agility-access only instead of Strength-access, so it can easily pick up Dodge but not Mighty Blow, and still cannot get Block or Piling On easily.


Tzeentch Chaos Roster

0-12 Mutants 6 3 3 7 40'000 M GASP
0-4 Tzaangor 6 3 3 8 Horns 60'000 MS GAP
0-4 Pink Horrors 6 3 3 7 Big Hand/Extra Arms, Stunty, Right Stuff, Regenerate, Split 80'000 M GASP
X Blue Horrors 6 2 3 7 Big Hand, Stunty, Titchy, Right Stuff, Animosity, Regenerate 60'000 M GASP
1 Chaos Sorceror 6 3 4 8 Wizard, Secret Weapon 200'000 MAS GP
0-1 Lord of Change 6 4 3 8 Loner, Secret Weapon, Disturbing Presence, Very Long Legs, Leap, Throw Teammate, Regenerate 150'000 MAS GP

Rerolls: 60k

Possible starting roster: 1 Chaos Sorcerer, 3 Tzaangor, 3 Pink Horrors, 5 Cultists, 3 Re-rolls, 0 FF

Wizard (Exceptional): This player counts as a Wizard for your team while he is standing on the pitch or in your reserves.
Split (Exceptional): If this player dies, you may add up to two Blue Horror players to your roster if you have space at the end of the game.

Thoughts: Some unique things here... Tzeentch is the Lord of Change, so all basic skill rolls are MUTATIONS. Not "you may take one" like Chaos Pact and Underworld get, but "you must take one". This is actually a drawback compared to the other Chaos teams. Additionally, the team does not start with ANY standard skills, only Mutations and Exceptional Abilities. Tzaangors at least have the option of taking Strength skills, though.

On the flip side, though, Pink Horrors are the only 3 ST Stunty or Right Stuff player (and Blue Horrors the only 2 ST Titchy). All Pink Horrors start with either Extra Arms OR Big Hand, coaches' choice. Could alternately be represented by having two separate roster options but I decided that was too complicated. The ONLY way to get a Blue Horror on your team is if a Pink one dies. You could eventually wind up with nothing but horrors on your team but it would take a long time or very bad luck.

This team also gets both a Big Guy and a "Special" Vampire like player. Both have a significant disadvantage though: wizards are forbidden to play Blood Bowl, so both of these players are considered Secret Weapons and will get ejected after a single drive! The Chaos Sorceror counts as a Wizard, but only while he's in your reserves or standing on the field, so if you don't use his spell before he gets ejected, you lose it. Also, note that he is obligatory: you must start the team with a Sorceror (although the team can continue if he dies.) While they're on the pitch, they'll quite possibly be the best players in the game, and Bribing the Ref can keep them around longer, but most of the time you'll only get them briefly. And while the Lord of Change could lob a Horror over people's head and score a one-turn TD, that means you only have the Lord on the pitch for one turn...


ETA: Add "Stunty" to Blue Horrors, as it should be paired with "Titchy". Reduced quantity of Beastmen on both teams and Dark Elf Cultists on Slaaneshi.

ETA2: A variety of changes, including cost increase for Sorcerer, AG5 for Daemonettes and re-working of Lord of Change and Keeper of Secrets.

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Last edited by Milo on Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:56 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:14 pm 
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Any thoughts? All constructive criticism will be considered. I haven't done any test games with these yet, but I'd like to, after consulting the BB hivemind.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:48 pm 
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To many non-linemen on both rosters.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:14 pm 
Emerging Star
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Agree with Darkson for slannesh.

I'd just take all non-linemen positions for the roster. If you compare to Nurgle, I'd say it were overpowered also. Nurgle, you've got expensive high ST players, who don't come with block and ball handle with difficulty. Here, you've got a plethora of "cheap" high AG players to ball handle and beastmen for linemen. Just feels "too good"

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:37 pm 
Super Star
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So, no objection to the players on either roster, but the amounts of them?

Would equalizing the Slaangor and Tzaangor with the 0-4 Pestigor improve that? If that change was made, and the Dark Elf Cultists went 0-2, then the Slaaneshi would have 8 non-linemen players (not counting the big guy). I guess I thought the loss of 4 ST4 players would be offset by 4 AG4 players (admittedly, the Daemonettes would be on top of that.)

Not counting Blue Horrors, who are stunty and not reliably acquired, that would put Tzeentch at a total of 9 non-linemen players -- less than Orcs even if you factor in a handful of stunties. On the other hand, Tzeentch is already handicapped by no easy access to block and other general skills.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:53 am 
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I think the Keeper of Secrets is far too good having General and Agility access. Even with a standard Big Guy skill access, he'd be underpriced.


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:04 am 
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Props to you for past contributions and overall I'm glad you're here....

More chaos rosters? Oh, hell no!!!! :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:50 am 
Emerging Star
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wizard is far too powerfull ST4 and cagebreaking for only 100k.
Especially if he can cast the fireball from the bench. I would go for the bombardier skill instead even if those are not bombs. Bombardier + ag4 is good enough and i would drop his strength to 3 because it is a wizard, wizard are weak by design. i would even drop his armor to 7 because wizard don't wear armors.
6 3 4 7 bombardier secret weapon MAP GS
for around 100K

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:15 am 
Super Star
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Digger Goreman wrote:
Props to you for past contributions and overall I'm glad you're here....

More chaos rosters? Oh, hell no!!!! :roll:


I can understand that maybe people are tired of seeing Chaos rosters proposed, although I didn't see any threads of this sort from 2016. I'm not proposing this as a BBRC member or in ANY way suggesting that these would become official. I had a couple ideas, and I'm crowd-sourcing revisions to them. Maybe I'll test them out and see if I like them, maybe this will remain a thought experiment and never go any further.

IN NO WAY AM I ASKING YOU, Digger Goreman, TO USE THESE ROSTERS.

With that said, I do find it hard to understand why it's necessary to pop onto a thread and just say "No". I asked for constructive criticism, which others have provided but your post is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:19 am 
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Elyoukey wrote:
wizard is far too powerfull ST4 and cagebreaking for only 100k.
Especially if he can cast the fireball from the bench. I would go for the bombardier skill instead even if those are not bombs. Bombardier + ag4 is good enough and i would drop his strength to 3 because it is a wizard, wizard are weak by design. i would even drop his armor to 7 because wizard don't wear armors.
6 3 4 7 bombardier secret weapon MAP GS
for around 100K


I'm listening. The idea behind him is that he is a player coach, a Chaos Warrior who takes the field. In essence, he's a vampire you can use for ONE DRIVE (because of Secret Weapon), and a Wizard whom you a) must take and b) your opponent can remove from the game and deny your use of. I could see increasing his cost some, but bombardier could be used multiple times, whereas lightning bolt or fireball can only be used once. (In the rules I would say that the Chaos Sorceror would not allow any other wizards on his team.)

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:47 am 
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Milo wrote:
In essence, he's a vampire you can use for ONE DRIVE (because of Secret Weapon), and a Wizard whom you
a) must take

Who would not want to take a wizard at 2/3 of the cost ? even for 1 half, the wizard is a game breaker and will win you a half.

Milo wrote:
b) your opponent can remove from the game and deny your use of.

To seek and destroy a ST4 player on the opposite side of the pitch is a real strategic choice, you will have to invest a lot of energy to get to him, not to mention to get rid of it. All this energy will be lost for all the ball handling stuff and this will make the wizard effect even more powerfull.
it is a loose loose situation.

Milo wrote:
I could see increasing his cost some, but bombardier could be used multiple times, whereas lightning bolt or fireball can only be used once.

The issue with fireball is that it will break the game. You don't have to use it twice to prevent a TD and even counter score. Also the scret weapon thing is useless since his main power can be used only once.
A bombardier can be catched/intercepted and a fumbbl is still dangerous for the thrower.
Also with pass access he can easily get the hail mary pass for a "fireball like" effect, staying out of reach. But he has to take some risk in the first games.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:42 am 
Emerging Star
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Oof, hadn't spotted the Tzeentch Sorcerer. £100k for an on roster wizard, instead of £150k/game. I've no idea how to price the player but £300-500k wouldn't sound too crazy if you just take the thought process of my first line. You would need to price him to make it a decision between on-roster, playable wizard with bonus fun and paying £150k/game.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:25 pm 
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I'm honestly surprised it took this long for someone to object to the Chaos Sorcerer. Let's look at his advantages and disadvantages:

PRO: Vampire stat line, Wizard ability
CON: Secret Weapon will probably cause him to miss at least half the game, no G-skill access, no useful starting skills

Comparing Secret Weapon to Blood Lust: Blood Lust will, on average, occur 2-3 times a game, resulting in the potential BH of a Thrall or the temporary loss of a Vampire for the rest of the drive. A good coach can, of course, mitigate this risk, or could use a re-roll to try to avoid a Blood Lust activation.

On the other hand, Secret Weapon will ALWAYS eject a player after a drive, unless someone uses a Bribe. Even assuming the player could stay on the pitch for an entire half, that still means they will lose eight full turns to ejection in every game. Yes, it's entirely possible the coach will have cast their Fireball by that point, but it does mean that the player themselves will be gone, depriving the Tzeentch team of their best player. Also, this will slow the development of the Chaos Sorcerer, as they will only be around for a short portion of the game. (They will basically never get two TDs in a game.)

Additionally, seen in the context of the whole team, Tzeentch has no other exception stat players and NO general access on normal rolls for the whole team. They have Stunty players without Dodge, no one starts with Block or can get it normally. Their best players can only participate in one drive per game. I discounted the Sorcerer a significant amount due to these factors. Maybe the Horrors or mutation-only cultists will prove to be better than I expect -- but I'd be surprised.

I will admit that perhaps I'm undervaluing the ability to case a spell in the new meta. I am currently playing in a league that allows rostered Wizards (for 150k), so within that context, a wizard/player who would only participate for at max half a game doesn't seem that out of place at 100k, especially with no access to Blodge.

I would like the Sorcerer to maintain at LEAST the stat line of a standard Chaos Warrior, because currently this team has almost nothing to recommend them otherwise.

Given all of that, if you still feel that the Sorcerer is undercosted, what if the Wizard skill was rewritten as such:

Wizard (Exceptional): This player counts as a Wizard for your team while he is standing (or prone) on the pitch or in your reserves.

This would mean that a team who could stun the wizard, even, would be able to negate the spell-casting ability much more easily. Any armor break of AV8 could ensure no spells could be cast -- and while the Sorcerer has ST4, he likely won't have Block. You could also remove the "(or prone)" from the skill, meaning that any knocked over Sorcerer would be nullified.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:55 pm 
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On balance, I think I'd take both of these teams over Nurgle, Chaos and the Cyanide Khorne roster. just to many advantages compared to others (my lineman post above was just a"spur of the moment" post, not my only objection.
Other examples: I don't see any justification for the Keeper having G access or the Lord being AG3, both of which would be unique amongst BGs. The on-pitch wizard - just urgh.

I'd like to see these both put through both the player and team creation "rules", as I feel they'd fail on both counts.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:42 pm 
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This is the slaanesh roster I would make - linemen and daemons is overpriced but you have gaze.

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Last edited by Bakunin on Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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