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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:32 pm 
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I don't think 6337 thick skull with GA access is overpriced at 50000


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:54 am 
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Shushnik wrote:
I don't think 6337 thick skull with GA access is overpriced at 50000

+1

i still don't see the need of this "A" access to the linemen

but i do prefer the roster of Balkunin as the one of Milo :)

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:08 pm 
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Shushnik wrote:
I don't think 6337 thick skull with GA access is overpriced at 50000


Well using GalakStarscrapers/Toms method for calculating price it goes:

Human linemen at 50k -1AV = 30K
+ thick skull(10k) = 40k.

you dont ever pay for skill access.

But this is another hypnogaze roster without bloodlust, so not to make them overpowered, the linemen take a cost hit.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:14 pm 
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They're pseudo overcosted.
If you can get 6337 Block or 6337 Dodge for 50K, then by comparison you're not getting full value for your gold with 6337 Thick Skull.
On the other hand, if 6337 - cost 40K (hobgobs), then 6337 TS 40K would have been a sweet deal.
Since we can't have 5K pricing increments, I think 50K is the best Price.
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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:42 pm 
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plasmoid wrote:
They're pseudo overcosted.
If you can get 6337 Block or 6337 Dodge for 50K, then by comparison you're not getting full value for your gold with 6337 Thick Skull.
On the other hand, if 6337 - cost 40K (hobgobs), then 6337 TS 40K would have been a sweet deal.
Since we can't have 5K pricing increments, I think 50K is the best Price.
Cheers
Martin


Hobgoblins and thralls are overpriced and where designed that way.

Thralls really need thick skull for 10k, so they stay at 40k
and
Hobgoblins really need sneaky git for 10k, so they stay at 40k

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:19 pm 
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Okay, I've made a big update to both team rosters to try to address some of the concerns, and I'd appreciate it if people would re-evaluate based on the new rosters, which also include re-roll costs and sample 1m starting rosters.

SLAANESH: Cultists cost the same as Pact Marauders but lose a point of AV and S/P access. Dark Elves are limited to 0-2, but now have M access. They are the same price as the Dark Elf Renegade on the Chaos Pact team, but sacrifice a point of armor for the lack of Animosity. 0-4 Slaangors match 0-4 Pestigors from the Nurgle team. Compared to Nurgle, this team sacrifices 4 ST4 players for 2 AG4 players and the Daemonettes.

Speaking of the Daemonettes, I'm proposing them as AG5 but with a price of 140k. This makes them better at Hypnotic Gaze than Vampires, but with No Hands they still aren't capable of ballhandling, so the Agility will only really ever impact dodging and Gazing. They can become Blodgers, and with the ability to dodge into cages and Hypnotic Gaze, they are the teams primary ballhunters. Of course, they need backup because if they knock the ball free, they won't be able to pick it up.

The Keeper of Secrets is a ST4/AG3 big guy, which makes him equivalent in base power to a Chaos Warrior. He still has Wild Animal and Loner, though, and that largely offsets the significant number of skills he starts with. Still, keep him blitzing and this guy has some serious star potential.

TZEENTCH: Tzeentch cultists have the same statline as a Hobgoblin. They do have M access but this is a double-edged sword because that is ALL they have. Tzaangors are the same limit and statline as the other -Gors/Beastmen, but also have no access to General skills unless they roll doubles.

Horrors are really your "finesse" players. They have a pretty basic statline, but Stunty means they can dodge with no penalties, and either Big Hand or Extra Arms give them a bonus. Stunty and Big Hand could be a great combo when the ball is loose but in a bunch of tackle zones. Of course, the value of Stunty (and Titchy for the Blues) is limited without access to the Dodge skill -- these Horrors will wind up burning a lot of team re-rolls. Pinks, when they die, become two Blues (provided roster space exists), but not WITHIN the game -- like raising a Rotter or Zombie, this only happens in the post-game process, which reduces a lot of special rules. Pinks are described as happy and mischievous, but Blues are sullen and angry -- hence the Animosity.

The Chaos Sorcerer is a mandatory purchase when starting a team, so he consumes 1/5 of your team's budget to start off. He's got a pretty basic statline -- the same as any High or Dark Elf lineman -- and has a unique combo of skill access with Strength, Agility and Mutation but no General skills. He has a unique new skills Wizard, which makes him a permanent rostered Wizard for your team -- but he can only cast a spell if he is in the reserves or standing on the pitch. Furthermore, he has Secret Weapon (Wizards ARE illegal on the pitch, after all) so he can generally only participate in a single drive. (Get The Ref will be Tzeentch's favorite kickoff result.) Combined with the rules that state that Wizards can only cast spells at the START or END of their turn, this limits the spell-casting ability significantly. If the Sorcerer falls down due to a failed dodge, no spell casting at the end of the turn. If the Sorcerer is knocked down by the opposing team during their turn, no spell casting at the start of the turn. And if the Tzeentch coach wants to keep their spellcasting ability for the entire game, that means they have to keep 200,000 in team value sitting on the bench. (Keep in mind that an Ejected Sorcerer is no longer in reserves so cannot cast a spell then either.)

I know this is a powerful ability -- but it's totally in keeping with both Tzeentch and Blood Bowl lore. There HAVE been Wizards who played on the pitch before; that's why it's been outlawed. (The argument for letting them on the pitch: refs have no more desire to stand in the way of someone who can turn them into a frog than they do a dude with a chainsaw.) I think the requirement to be standing or in reserves, PLUS the team-wide inability to take general skills, significantly offsets the potency of the spellcasting, and at 200k the Sorcerer is priced at nearly the cost of a Wizard AND the cost of an Elf Lineman who's statline he shares.

Like the Keeper of Secrets, the Lord of Change is a ST4 AG3 Big Guy. He has no negative skills that impact him on a turn-by-turn basis, but his magic is considered a Secret Weapon as well. The Very Long Legs and Leap skills represent his ability to take flight for short periods, but most Blood Bowl arenas wouldn't give him the time or space necessary to truly take off. He can toss some Horrors around and be generally disruptive while he's on the pitch, though. I kind of envision a Tzeentch team playing with the LoC one half and the Sorceror the other half, just to make sure they've got one quality player on the field at any given time -- but it's entirely possible that a drive can end early and Tzeentch loses their best players for the rest of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:10 pm 
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Comparing the flavors of Chaos

All players on Chaos rosters can be categorized into one of four groups: Linemen, Beastmen, Special Players and Big Guys. Let's look at them together with their counterparts from the other teams.

LINEMEN

Chaos Undivided: no "linemen" per-se, but instead get a much larger contingent of Beastmen, who are generally as good or better.
Chaos Pact: 6/3/3/8 Marauders for 50k with no skills but GSPM access.
Nurgle: 5/3/3/8 Rotters for 40k, with Decay and Nurgle's Rot and GM access.
Khorne: 6/3/3/8 Pit Fighters for 60k, with Frenzy and GP access.
Slaanesh: 6/3/3/7 Cultists for 50k with no skills and GM access.
Tzeentch: 6/3/3/7 Mutants for 40k with no skills and only M access.

Pact has the best skill access and stats/price. Khorne gets Frenzy across the board -- which is a double-edged sword on a 3ST player without skills -- but loses Mutations, Passing and Strength skills. Nurgle Rotters have a negative skill (Decay) but are cheaper and can reproduce themselves. Slaanesh is something of a baseline, lower AV and less skill access than Pact. And Tzeentch is cheap but players and hampered by never being able to get core skills like Block or Sure Hands.
WINNER: Pact, probably. But not by a landslide. I'd rank them: Pact (6), Khorne (5), Undivided (4), Slaanesh (3), Nurgle (2), Tzeentch (1).


BEASTMEN

Chaos Undivided: 0-16 6/3/3/8 for 60k with Horns and GSM access. Horns is somewhat discounted because it can only be used by one player per turn.
Chaos Pact: none.
Nurgle: 0-4 6/3/3/8 for 80k but with Horns, Regenerate and Nurgle's Rot. GSM access. Regenerate for 20k is a great deal.
Khorne: 0-2 Khorne Heralds 6/3/3/8 for 90k but with Horns, Frenzy and Juggernaut and GSM access.
Slaanesh: identical to Chaos Undivided.
Tzeentch: 0-4 6/3/3/8 for 60k with Horns and SM access. General skills are right out but at least they can still get Guard and MB.

WINNER: Nurgle (6), definitely -- no one else can get Regeneration. Khorne's (5) Heralds/Khorngors next. Slaanesh (3.5) and Chaos Undivided (3.5) are identical, Tzeentch (2) is a little behind. Pact (1) gets a N/A.


SPECIAL PLAYERS

Chaos Undivided: 0-4 Chaos Warriors 5/4/3/9 for 100k, with GSM.
Chaos Pact: 0-1 Dark Elf Lineman, 0-1 Goblin, 0-1 Skaven Lineman -- aka one player with AG4 for 70k, one player with stunty and dodge for 40k, and one player who swaps a point of AV for a point of MA. (I think the Skaven is mostly fluff.)
Nurgle: 0-4 Nurgle Warriors 4/4/2/9 for 110k with Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Regeneration and Nurgle's Rot and GSM access.
Khorne: 0-4 Bloodletters 6/3/3/7 for 80k with Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration and GAS access.
Slaanesh: 0-2 Dark Elf Lineman with -1 AG, 0-2 Daemonettes 6/3/5/7 for 140k with Hypnotic Gaze, Claw, No Hands, Regenerate .
Tzeentch: 0-4 Pink Horrors 6/3/3/7 for 80k with (Big Hand OR Extra Arms), Stunty, Right Stuff, Regenerate and Split. Only M access. Also a very expensive player/coach, the Sorcerer 6/3/4/8 for 200k, who can cast a spell if he's not ejected for Secret Weapon or knocked down and only has ASM access -- no General.

WINNER: Depends how much you like Wizards. I'd probably rank them Nurgle (6), Slaanesh (5), Undivided (4), Khorne (3), Pact (2), Tzeentch (1/6) if not for the Sorcerer.


BIG GUYS

Undivided: 0-1 Minotaur 5/5/2/8 for 150k with Loner, Frenzy, WA, MB, TS, Horns and SM access.
Pact: 0-1 Minotaur, 0-1 Troll, 0-1 Ogre. Your basic versions of each with the added access to Mutations on doubles.
Nurgle: 0-1 Beast of Nurgle 4/5/1/9 for 140k with Loner, Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Mighty Blow, Nurgle's Rot, Really Stupid, Regeneration, Tentacles. S access only (M on doubles).
Khorne: 0-1 Bloodthirster 6/5/1/9 for 180k with Loner, Wild Animal, Claw, Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut and Regenerate. S access only.
Slaanesh: 0-1 Keeper of Secrets 6/4/3/8 for 160k with Loner, Wild Animal, Disturbing Presence, Claw, Horns, Regenerate. A access only.
Tzeentch: 0-1 Lord of Change 6/4/3/8 for 150k with Loner, Secret Weapon, Disturbing Presence, VLL, Leap, TTM, Regenerate. ASM access.

WINNER: Pact (6) by a mile because they get three. Then probably Khorne (5), Nurgle (4), Undivided (3), Slaanesh (2) and Tzeentch (1).


OVERALL

If we were to give them all between 1-6 points based on where they ranked on a player-by-player basis, here's what we'd wind up with:

Linemen: Pact (6), Khorne (5), Undivided (4), Slaanesh (3), Nurgle (2), Tzeentch (1).
Beastmen: Nurgle (6), Khorne's (5), Slaanesh (3.5), Undivided (3.5), Tzeentch (2), Pact (1).
Specials: Nurgle (6), Slaanesh (5), Undivided (4), Khorne (3), Pact (2), Tzeentch (1/6) depending how much you value the wizard.
Big Guy: Pact (6), Khorne (5), Nurgle (4), Undivided (3), Slaanesh (2) and Tzeentch (1).

Totals:

Undivided: 14.5
Pact: 15
Nurgle: 18
Khorne: 18
Slaanesh: 13.5
Tzeentch: 10/5 depending on value of wizard


Any thoughts? Do you think I'm wrong on any of my evaluations? I'm trying to keep them all relatively balanced but give them each a distinct flavor. Slaanesh are a finesse Chaos team. Tzeentch are a wierd, kooky team that has limitations but also some unique potential.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:57 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
On balance, I think I'd take both of these teams over Nurgle, Chaos and the Cyanide Khorne roster. just to many advantages compared to others (my lineman post above was just a"spur of the moment" post, not my only objection.
Other examples: I don't see any justification for the Keeper having G access or the Lord being AG3, both of which would be unique amongst BGs. The on-pitch wizard - just urgh.

I'd like to see these both put through both the player and team creation "rules", as I feel they'd fail on both counts.


I hope I answered some of your concerns with my latest changes and the comparison I did between the Chaos flavors.

Regarding your second point about the player and team creation "rules"...

General Team Rules:
1) No team can have AG 4 and ST 4+ players (unless the ST 4+ players are a Big Guy or Vampire)
2) Total Strength of the 16 highest ST players should not exceed 54
3) Take all players over 100k in price that are not Big Guy stock. Subtract 100k from each of their price and multiple this amount * the maximum number allowed. Total this amount for the team. This amount cannot exceed 60k. (Example the Chaos Dwarf team has 2 non Big Guy players over 100k. The Bull Centaurs are 130k. Subtract 100k from each and multiple by the 2 they are allowed and you get 60k so that team is okay.
4) No team should have more than 2 0-16 slots or more than 6 different positions (including the lineman slot) allowed on the team. (Example the Orc team has 6 different positions).
5) Slots not set at 0-16 are limited to 0-6 maximum allowed.
6) A team cannot have Agile player types and Blocker player types on the same roster.
7) Team Re-roll prices should not be set at less than 50k.
Rule 8?) No player's ST + AG should be more than 7.


Rule 1: Slaanesh PASSED, Tzeentch PASSED. Both teams have AG4+ players but the only ST4 players are the Big Guys.
Rule 2: Slaanesh 49 PASSED, Tzeentch 49 PASSED.
Rule 3: Slaanesh 40k x 2 = 80k FAILED, Tzeentch 100k x 1 = 100k FAILED
Rule 4: Slaanesh 1 0-16 slot and 5 slots total PASSED, Tzeentch 1 0-16 slot and 6 slots total PASSED
Rule 5: Slaanesh PASSED, Tzeentch PASSED
Rule 6: Slaanesh only has Agile players PASSED, Tzeentch only has Agile players PASSED
Rule 7: Slaanesh 70k PASSED, Tzeentch 60k PASSED
Rule 8: Slaanesh Daemonette has ST+AG of 8 on Daemonettes but they have No Hands FAILED, Tzeentch Sorcerer has ST+AG of 7 PASSED

Rule 3 is a failure for both of the players. However, to some extent it depends on how you price negative skills. No Hands is a significant one as it makes high AG only half as useful. I priced the Daemonette as follows:

Quote:
2) AGILE PLAYER
This player type starts as:
6/3/4/8 No Skills -- 70,000 gold

All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following:
30k: Regeneration

The following stat changes are allowed to this player type:
AV 7: -20k


So, 70k (base) -20k (AV7) +30k (Regen) +20k (Claw) +20k (Hypnotic Gaze) = 120k

That leaves two other changes: AG5 and No Hands. I calculated AG5 at the same price a Blocker Player pays for ST5: 40k. That puts her at 160k. Most other negative skills are in the -10k to -30k range, so I split the difference for No Hands at -20k. That gives her the base price of 140k. But could you argue that No Hands is worth more than -20k? Sure -- the player can never advance the ball in any fashion, and is prohibited from three methods of gaining SPPs (passes, interceptions and touchdowns), leaving only MVP and casualties. But she does have the ability to become a nasty blodging cage-rushing blitzer. So I left her at 140k.

The Chaos Sorcerer puts Tzeentch into the fail category here all by himself, because his base price of 200k - 100k leaves 100k remaining. But I think you could make the argument that he's not just a player, he's coaching staff too, so arguably a large portion of his cost isn't strictly a player cost. I priced him as an Agile player (70k base) +150k for Wizard and -20k for Secret Weapon. Maybe Secret Weapon should give him a bigger discount, but lots of people raised concerns so I'm willing to leave it as-is until testing.

Note that I didn't take Player General Rule #1 (which halves the cost in excess of 100k for players that cost more than 100k) into account for either of these player types. Strictly speaking by this rule, they should each be cheaper. But they are also unique in that they break Team Rule #3, so no discount for them -- they are special snowflakes who don't abide by all the rules, not even the ones that benefit them.

The Sorcerer breaks Team Rule #5 (which prohibits new Secret Weapons from being added to rosters) in the letter of the rule, but I don't think it breaks the SPIRIT of the rule. I'm not adding a new weapon. I'm using the "Secret Weapon" skill as a NEGATIVE skill. I could have created another special rule just for the Sorcerer but I'm really trying to avoid doing that. Secret Weapon triggers a sufficiently negative result, fits the fluff, and already exists in the current rules. One of my goals to making these teams was to try to shoe-horn them in with a minimum of new rules. The two new exceptional skills for Tzeentch consist of a total of 50 words of new rules, are both Exceptional skills so can never be gained by anyone else, and are clear and concise.

So I'll admit they break the rules a little bit -- but I did really try to follow those rules and come up with two fresh new teams that skewed pretty close to the "accepted" means of creating a team.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:47 am 
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Bakunin wrote:
This is the slaanesh roster I would make - linemen and daemons is overpriced but you have gaze.

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Yeah, this is the one we came up with aye?
I've tested this one over 3ish days and it's quite a nice roster that can be played two ways; tactical or killer. With this team I really like the idea of positionals supporting the linemen. And the Daemonettes certainly do this by taking the oppositions players out, or by gazing screens letting the lineman cage waltz down through. AG5 is way too overpowered for a hypnogazer. Even with no hands as a supporting role in the team it'd be crazy.

You can see more of my findings with testing the team on the previous Slaanesh team topic. I did testing with low tv and high tv against agile and bash teams.

As for tzeentch my idea of them is a stunty chaos team. I always adored underworld for their mutated goblins and I think another team similar to this would be really fun. I quite like the Tzeentch team on fumbbl secret league. They look fun to play. There was also an idea I saw for Tzeentch before which is ridiculously funny that was something like:

0-16- Pink Horrors - 6/3/3/7 - Extra arms, Horns, Right stuff, Throw team mate - GM/ASP - ?k

Which I find very funny. Imagine a team that just throws eachother around! However as ridiculous as it sounds, it says that pink horrors are often seen leaping across the battle field. We've already got a leaping team (slann) so why not a TTM team :D

I also like the idea of Firewyrms on a Tzeentch team with bombadier, hail mary pass and no secret weapon. It'd be a ridiculous team having Horrors being thrown around aswell as bombs but it sounds like a fun idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:21 am 
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mushoomy wrote:
AG5 is way too overpowered for a hypnogazer. Even with no hands as a supporting role in the team it'd be crazy.

I also like the idea of Firewyrms on a Tzeentch team with bombadier, hail mary pass and no secret weapon. It'd be a ridiculous team having Horrors being thrown around aswell as bombs but it sounds like a fun idea.


How is two AG5 players with Hypnotic Gaze worse than four AG4 Gazers (your roster) or 6 AG4 Gazers (Vampires)? Yes, AG5 makes Hypnotic Gaze more reliable, but you'd have better odds of opening a hole with 4 or 6 Gazers than 2.

I was planning to create a Flamer star player with Bombardier. I don't know if we should add that as a normal player.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:59 am 
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Milo wrote:
mushoomy wrote:
AG5 is way too overpowered for a hypnogazer. Even with no hands as a supporting role in the team it'd be crazy.

I also like the idea of Firewyrms on a Tzeentch team with bombadier, hail mary pass and no secret weapon. It'd be a ridiculous team having Horrors being thrown around aswell as bombs but it sounds like a fun idea.


How is two AG5 players with Hypnotic Gaze worse than four AG4 Gazers (your roster) or 6 AG4 Gazers (Vampires)? Yes, AG5 makes Hypnotic Gaze more reliable, but you'd have better odds of opening a hole with 4 or 6 Gazers than 2.

I was planning to create a Flamer star player with Bombardier. I don't know if we should add that as a normal player.


Because when its on a 3+ you try to make it work, but when it becomes 2+, you can play your turn as if it is going to work (atleast with a reroll).
You use the rest of the team to make sure there no double cage, and then the daemonettes opens up the cage.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:29 am 
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You also don't have the Bloodlust limitation on those AG5 players. Which makes them very reliable.


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:03 am 
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Let's not forget dodging into a tz with AG 5 is 2+. That'd make a crazy mobile killing machine if you chose the killer development. The only other with AG5 to start I have is the ability to be AG7. Although unlikely, it'd be the first in the game. Dodging into 3 tacklezones on a 2+. But like I said, very unlikely to happen and I wouldn't choose the AG increase with no hands.

No player has started with AG5 before and it makes the daemonettes too great a support player for the cultists. In my test games with the teams, even with AG4 my opponent/test budddy easily blocked paths for my Daemonettes/marked my players so it's harder to get to my desired hypnogaze spot.


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:21 pm 
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mushoomy wrote:
Let's not forget dodging into a tz with AG 5 is 2+. That'd make a crazy mobile killing machine if you chose the killer development. The only other with AG5 to start I have is the ability to be AG7. Although unlikely, it'd be the first in the game. Dodging into 3 tacklezones on a 2+. But like I said, very unlikely to happen and I wouldn't choose the AG increase with no hands.

No player has started with AG5 before and it makes the daemonettes too great a support player for the cultists. In my test games with the teams, even with AG4 my opponent/test budddy easily blocked paths for my Daemonettes/marked my players so it's harder to get to my desired hypnogaze spot.


Agree..

The AG table only goes from 1 to 6. You can not get AG7.
So the only way to dodge 2+ into 3 tackle zones is to have AG6+two heads or STR6+Break tackle+two heads.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:06 pm 
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Bakunin wrote:
The AG table only goes from 1 to 6. You can not get AG7.
So the only way to dodge 2+ into 3 tackle zones is to have AG6+two heads or STR6+Break tackle+two heads.

Actually it goes from 1 to 6+, which accounts for the deathroller being ST7 with Break Tackle.


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