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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:00 pm 
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mushoomy wrote:
Let's not forget dodging into a tz with AG 5 is 2+. That'd make a crazy mobile killing machine if you chose the killer development. The only other with AG5 to start I have is the ability to be AG7. Although unlikely, it'd be the first in the game. Dodging into 3 tacklezones on a 2+. But like I said, very unlikely to happen and I wouldn't choose the AG increase with no hands.

No player has started with AG5 before and it makes the daemonettes too great a support player for the cultists. In my test games with the teams, even with AG4 my opponent/test budddy easily blocked paths for my Daemonettes/marked my players so it's harder to get to my desired hypnogaze spot.


That's kind of the point, to make the Daemonettes pretty fearsome.

But if you're gazing with them, you're not blitzing with them. And with only two Gaze players on the team, you cannot use Hypnotic Gaze to open nearly as big a hole in a line/cage as any of the other Gaze teams can.

Any thoughts on my analysis of the chaos flavors?

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:02 pm 
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Bakunin wrote:
Because when its on a 3+ you try to make it work, but when it becomes 2+, you can play your turn as if it is going to work (atleast with a reroll).
You use the rest of the team to make sure there no double cage, and then the daemonettes opens up the cage.


Are you more likely to successfully Gaze twice with 2 2+ rolls or 4 3+ rolls?

Admittedly, as someone pointed out, Blood Lust makes vampires less reliable -- but the flip side is they are also ST4, so are better in that regard as well.

The position I'm proposing is:

0-2 Daemonette 6 3 5 7 Hypnotic Gaze, Claw, No Hands, Regenerate 140'000 GA SP

vs.

0-6 Vampires 6 4 4 8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate 110,000 GAS P

You get four less of them, give up a point of ST and a point of AV, lose S access on normal rolls, and the ability to touch or affect the ball in any way. You get Claw, +1 AG and don't have Blood Lust, and you pay an additional 30k for that.

Yes, they're good -- they are supposed to be. Are they game-breaking good? Does that extra point of AG make that big a difference? Would they be balanced at 110k for 4AG?

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:00 pm 
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Milo wrote:
Are you more likely to successfully Gaze twice with 2 2+ rolls or 4 3+ rolls?


You're only looking at half the picture with this question. If you have to commit 4 players to achieving a result, you're expending quite a few resources. Also, as each Gaze fails, you're limiting the amount of TZ-free spots to attempt further gazes. Subsequent Gazes after the first one are more likely to have increased difficulty.


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:11 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
Bakunin wrote:
The AG table only goes from 1 to 6. You can not get AG7.
So the only way to dodge 2+ into 3 tackle zones is to have AG6+two heads or STR6+Break tackle+two heads.

Actually it goes from 1 to 6+, which accounts for the deathroller being ST7 with Break Tackle.


Yes, but the deathroller dodges as it have AG6 or 3+ into 3 tacklezones.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:57 am 
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Milo wrote:
Bakunin wrote:
Because when its on a 3+ you try to make it work, but when it becomes 2+, you can play your turn as if it is going to work (atleast with a reroll).
You use the rest of the team to make sure there no double cage, and then the daemonettes opens up the cage.


Are you more likely to successfully Gaze twice with 2 2+ rolls or 4 3+ rolls?

Admittedly, as someone pointed out, Blood Lust makes vampires less reliable -- but the flip side is they are also ST4, so are better in that regard as well.

The position I'm proposing is:

0-2 Daemonette 6 3 5 7 Hypnotic Gaze, Claw, No Hands, Regenerate 140'000 GA SP

vs.

0-6 Vampires 6 4 4 8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate 110,000 GAS P

You get four less of them, give up a point of ST and a point of AV, lose S access on normal rolls, and the ability to touch or affect the ball in any way. You get Claw, +1 AG and don't have Blood Lust, and you pay an additional 30k for that.

Yes, they're good -- they are supposed to be. Are they game-breaking good? Does that extra point of AG make that big a difference? Would they be balanced at 110k for 4AG?

such "rookie"-AG5 guy is WAY too powerfull. even if there is only 2 of them.

Quote:
You get Claw, +1 AG and don't have Blood Lust, and you pay an additional 30k (and -1Av) for that.

this is a great deal !
BloodLust is one of the worth nega-trait of the game. Claw one of the best skill of the game. Ag5 don't exist at all in the game (as starting).
And Av7 does not really matter (those 2 guy will be always protected like hell), and they will don't care that much of opponent clawpombers...

Your Ag5 guy are definitly too cheap, and too good.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:10 am 
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babass wrote:
Quote:
You get Claw, +1 AG and don't have Blood Lust, and you pay an additional 30k (and -1Av) for that.

this is a great deal !
BloodLust is one of the worth nega-trait of the game. Claw one of the best skill of the game. Ag5 don't exist at all in the game (as starting).
And Av7 does not really matter (those 2 guy will be always protected like hell), and they will don't care that much of opponent clawpombers...

Your Ag5 guy are definitly too cheap, and too good.


I feel like some of this is knee-jerk reaction to something that isn't in the game currently. We have ST5 players who have no nega-traits in the game -- they are adequately priced and have other limitations to balance it out. I feel like we should be able to do the same with an AG5 player. And if the Daemonette is always on the front lines breaking holes in lines with her Hypnotic Gaze, how do you propose to "always protect [her] like hell"? By definition, to use her Gaze, you have to be adjacent to someone who can punch you the following turn.

But okay, you guys feel she's overpowered. So let me ask you:

1) How would you price the Daemonette, as written, to make her balanced to her cost?
2) How would you price the Daemonette, with AG4 but otherwise unchanged, to make her balanced to her cost?

Please provide to me some logic instead of just throwing a price out. I've shown you guys how I used the player costing rules to try to arrive at a fair price.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:55 am 
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Milo wrote:

But okay, you guys feel she's overpowered. So let me ask you:

1) How would you price the Daemonette, as written, to make her balanced to her cost?


Have you perhaps considered it's not simply a matter of cost, but a matter of not wanting such a powerful figure in the game? A player that can Dodge and Gaze with such reliability isn't something I particularly want to see on the pitch - let alone one that improve, becoming better at blocking, easy access to Leap, and the potential for a Strength increase that would be horrific? You can "correctly" cost anything, but if it's too powerful it can still ruin a game.

Quote:
2) How would you price the Daemonette, with AG4 but otherwise unchanged, to make her balanced to her cost?

110k. No discount given for No Hands. With 9 other players on the pitch, it's not much of a drawback to have a couple of players with specialised tasks who can't handle the ball.


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:50 pm 
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Moraiwe wrote:
Milo wrote:

But okay, you guys feel she's overpowered. So let me ask you:

1) How would you price the Daemonette, as written, to make her balanced to her cost?


Have you perhaps considered it's not simply a matter of cost, but a matter of not wanting such a powerful figure in the game? A player that can Dodge and Gaze with such reliability isn't something I particularly want to see on the pitch - let alone one that improve, becoming better at blocking, easy access to Leap, and the potential for a Strength increase that would be horrific? You can "correctly" cost anything, but if it's too powerful it can still ruin a game.


I've considered it -- I'm listening to all the feedback you and others have given me, and I've tweaked both rosters considerably in response.

So far, I don't feel convinced that the Daemonettes, even with AG5, would break the game. Yes, between AG5 and Gaze they could open a hole in a cage. Slaan Catchers can leap on a 2+ into a cage with Guard and bust a cage. Big Guys can get Break Tackle and bust a cage. There are lots of ways to do that. The Daemonettes couldn't carry a ball through a line with AG5. They can't pick up the ball in lots of tackle zones. Would they be nasty if they get a Strength upgrade? Yes, definitely. But you get the same situation if a Vampire rolls an AG increase -- and they can get Dodge and Leap too.

Give me your nightmare scenario, something these Daemonettes could do that no one else could, and why that should be prohibited.

Moraiwe wrote:
Quote:
2) How would you price the Daemonette, with AG4 but otherwise unchanged, to make her balanced to her cost?

110k. No discount given for No Hands. With 9 other players on the pitch, it's not much of a drawback to have a couple of players with specialised tasks who can't handle the ball.


I understand what you're saying about having 9 other players to handle the ball -- and the Slaanesh team does have the Dark Elf Cultists, who would be the preferred ballcarriers. That said, it does reduce the utility of THIS player, distinct from the rest of the team.

I'd still like to hear other opinions, but bringing the Daemonettes down to AG4 and a cost of 110k would bring this roster into compliance with General Team Rules 3 and 8. I just don't love it from a fluff/team-uniqueness point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:17 pm 
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I'm still not convinced that the AG5 isn't too powerful. When I did testing for the slaanesh team that bakunin and I created AG4 on the daemonettes was still very reliable. If we increase the reliability of a player we'd expect a lot more succes with cage breaking. With breaktackle you dodge in on a 4+. With slann breaking cages, you have to get a guard in (3+ unless its a catcher) then a blitzing frog (another 3 +. With your Daemonettes you make a two plus hypnogaze and run in with a wrestle cultist and bam. Its a fun idea AG5 on them and you are correct that no hands drop the use of this player but regardless of that factor he'd be too reliable. However, despite that I do not mind testing it and may do so in the near future afterrelooking at a myrmidian team.


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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:16 am 
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I do like Bakunins roster.

On the other hand I find the AG5 daemonette intriguing. Doesn't appear broken to me, given the rest of the line-up.
If any AG5 player is ever to be OK, then it has to be a No Hands one :orc:

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:29 am 
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Well, at least the objections are starting to dry up, and I'm not alone in finding the idea of the AG5 Daemonette intriguing.

I think I'll playtest the Slaanesh roster as I've posted it in the OP. I encourage anyone else to give it a try and see what you think also, and let me know what your findings are.

Any more thoughts on the Tzeentch roster? Do my latest changes to the price and Wizard skill (must be standing or in reserves) balance the ability to have a permanent wizard on the roster?

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:43 am 
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Milo wrote:
Slaan Catchers can leap on a 2+ into a cage with Guard and bust a cage. Big Guys can get Break Tackle and bust a cage. There are lots of ways to do that.

Both of which carry the possibility of a fail injuring (or killing) your own player, the certainty of a turnover on a fail, and both need an additional skill (one a double).
Add in that both your examples are a "once per turn" attempt.

So yeah, a slight difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:57 am 
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Darkson wrote:
Milo wrote:
Slaan Catchers can leap on a 2+ into a cage with Guard and bust a cage. Big Guys can get Break Tackle and bust a cage. There are lots of ways to do that.

Both of which carry the possibility of a fail injuring (or killing) your own player, the certainty of a turnover on a fail, and both need an additional skill (one a double).
Add in that both your examples are a "once per turn" attempt.

So yeah, a slight difference.


Both are also more likely to produce a 2-die block, as Hypnotic Gaze does not remove the physical impediment of a player standing in the way. I'm not arguing that the Daemonette is not a good cage-killer. I'm not arguing that, straight out of the box, the Daemonette isn't a very good player. At 140k, she's arguably the best non-Big Guy player in the game, and the most expensive.

But you only get two. They have 7 AV and do not start with any skills that help them block or resist blocks. Two teams that cage a lot (Dorfs, Hat Dorfs) have ample access to Tackle and Guard, both of which will hurt a Daemonette's chances to succeed or survive the counterpunch. Other caging teams have ST4 (Orcs, Chaos).

Other team rosters with Gaze (Vampires, Bakunin's Slaanesh) have a lot more Gaze. My Slaanesh roster only has two players, two fragile players, and to use the skill, you have to end your turn adjacent to an opponent, which means they get to hit you next turn. (Vampires are ST4, at least, which reduces the chances of getting knocked down.)

And is there EVER a situation in which blitzing into a cage isn't a once per turn situation?

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:04 am 
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Milo wrote:
And is there EVER a situation in which blitzing into a cage isn't a once per turn situation?

But you're not blitzing with the Daemonette (if you're using Gaze), so if the first one fails you can still attempt it with the second, something neither of your examples gives.

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 Post subject: Re: Input desired: Slaanesh and Tzeentch Chaos Rosters
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:43 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
Milo wrote:
And is there EVER a situation in which blitzing into a cage isn't a once per turn situation?

But you're not blitzing with the Daemonette (if you're using Gaze), so if the first one fails you can still attempt it with the second, something neither of your examples gives.


Yeah that's what I was thinking. You wouldn't necessarily be blitzing the ball carrier with a daemonnette. Infact it'd be a one dice if you did. Instead you'd blitz with one of your slanngors who have horns making it a two dice on the ball carrier. I'm not saying the daemonnette itself is over powered, but as a support to the rest of the team it is. On bakunin and I's roster (I made the roster we worked on it and made it pretty), the AG5 wouldn't work either as you can have 4. I just don't see ag5 working on daemonnettes on either of the rosters. AG 4 is already great for hypnogaze (just look at eldril!), if you're lucky just get an AG increase to AG5, no need for them to start with it in my opinion.


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