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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:30 am 
Super Star
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Shteve0 wrote:
Acolytes

Just to reiterate - I'm looking at this roster as four pinks, two tzaangors so far - what blues I'd look at for the numbers 12-16 on my roster as bombs and utility subs, with maybe 0 or 1 in my starting 11. The linemen in this team definitely have a role to play then, not a world away from human, orc or slann linemen, as unglamorous utility players; or even zombies.

Without the high ag superstars of the four elves, skaven or even vampires, or the wall of durability of chaos dwarfs, khemri etc, both 50k and av7 just seem too low from a practical perspective - you're going to be lining them up on your LOS against stronger teams (which there are lots of) and its important they can take a punch. Av9 would obviously be ridiculous, but av8 and thick skull would do the job.


Okay, so here's where I really have an issue with the team. Why give them AV8 and thick skull? One or the other seems reasonable to me, but both seems like overkill. Consider that Norse linemen have AV7 and no thick skull, but are roughly as well armored on the pitch. Human lineman, clearly MORE armored than the Kairic Acolytes, are AV8 with no thick skull. Certainly, there are a large number of teams who would benefit from having guys who can take a punch on the front line, but they don't all get them.

If you want to say that Tzeentch, changer of ways, has seen fit to bless them all with thickened skulls (or padded helmets, in his wisdom), then sure, give them Thick SKull. But if you give them both benefits, I don't think it fits their fluff, models, NOR does it really seem deserved in terms of team balance.

Why would Tzeentch have the best AG3 linemen in the game?

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Shteve0 wrote:
Last but not least - the Chaos Spawn.
...
Looking at what's left in the category, the prime candidates of a player this type are two heads, extra arms, tentacles, foul appearance, horns and prehensile tail. Given the team's lack of bash potential, making a player that can hold fast and agile players has definite value, so a player that can make use of tentacles and two heads to become a mobile ball of too has definite appeal, so ma5, st5, ag2 look like great matches. Since they're not bashers, I'm at ease with 0-2 of these guys, and since theyre vulnerable to opposition hitters, AV9 and a defensive skill (foul appearance, thick skull, regeneration) sit well too.


Look, they are ST5, that means they are hitters. No matter what you want them to become, I guarantee in most cases the first skill a player gives them is going to be Claw, and they will be hitters.

I don't think there's an argument you can make to give them two of them AND ST3 players. Yes, Chaos Pact has three but also has only one TTM possibility. Yours has tons, both as bombs and as legitimate scoring threats (honestly better than Goblins, if you ask me.) You could potentially build a team with no ST2 options AND 2 ST5 big guys. Yes, classic Undead can do that, but they don't have TTM at all and their ST5 big guys are seriously limited as well.

Now, I'd be willing to play test it, but I'd recommend the following instead:

Chaos Spawn 4 5 1 9 Loner, Always Hungry, Throw Teammate, Really Stupid, Foul Appearance, Tentacles, Strong Arm, Thick Skull M only pricing TBD

Chaos Spawn are supposed to be insane, ravening beasts, so Really Stupid fits with that both as a limiting factor and as a nod to the fluff, and as long as you keep a player near him, should not be any more crippling than Bonehead. (Additionally, both the Nurgle Chaos Spawn and the Troll I based this statline on have it.) I'm with you that I think an exploding Blue Horror when eaten is a funny, funny thing, so let's give it to him. In place of Regeneration, this Spawn gets Tentacles, which is a very useful mutation on a ST5 player. To represent the whip action of those Tentacles when throwing players, he gets Strong Arm which gives him an effective AG2 for Throwing but NOT for dodging.

Now the player has all the expected downsides of a Big Guy -- Loner, a neg skill or two, and limited skill access. He shares a similar statline with the Nurgle spawn: 4519, Really Stupid, Tentacles, Foul Appearance. By giving him that profile, we essentially establish 4519, RS, T, FA as the basic statline for a spawn, with Disturbing Presence, Mighty Blow, Nurgle's Rot and Regeneration being the "Nurgle" additions to this template. Instead of S only access, he gets M only access, with Disturbing Presence, Horns, Claw, Prehensile Tail being some of the ones I'd go for first.

I still don't think they should have two big guys when virtually no other team does, but I'd be willing to playtest it this way.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:35 pm 
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I will agree ... the team should not have two Chaos Spawn.

And Tomb Guardians and Mummies are NOT Big Guys per the roster development and secret weapons do not count as ST 3+ players for the roster design rules (for the record).

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:47 am 
Legend
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Cool, some solid thoughts there, thanks for that. A lot of merit in what youre saying, though while I think its right to be cautious I suspect its a fair exaggeration to say exploding halflings and a couple of spawn would be better than goblins - for a start trolls don't get blown up when a goblin dies in an adjacent square!

I think if we're to look at stepping back a level in av and cost on the linemen, then two things need to happen; one, we need a 10k price increase somewhere else on the roster to prevent a fully purchaseable team from the off, and two, we need to consider how collapsible and vulnerable the team will be (people complained about apes dying in droves, and they have four st4 blockers, a pair of wrestlers, dont explode and blow each other up and dont rely on throwing each other into the air to make plays).

So to throw this out there - what if our kairic lineman were 6337 thick skull GPM/AS for 50k? The thick skull for av trade is fairly straight in terms of swapping 9+/8+ for removal to 8+/9+, though means more time stunned and less likely to want to scrap; in return they get good skill access (compared to normal humans, not marauders).

As I say I think doing that necessitates a change elsewhere on the roster to limit the number of positional you can get when buying a team with 1m. Perhaps taking the Tzaangor for 90k and adding thick skull is an option too, and swapping the P access on the pinks to A for free, to give them both a bit more longevity.

If the spawn is going to be the sole road block on the team, and gain always hungry and really stupid, I see definite problems with blue horrors blowing them up (as if you want to take one down hitting a blue into a square beside them is a fairly risk free approach). I also think the key to these guys not becoming claw players is to make other stuff more appealing, like tentacles and two heads, so dropping the ag doesn't entice me really.

How about this as an idea to look at alongside the above tweaks?

0-? Chaos Spawn 5529 Loner, Always Hungry, Foul Appearance, Really Stupid, Thick Skull, Throw Team-Mate M/GASP 140k? Same stats and price as an ogre, but with Foul Appearance traded in for Mighty Blow.

I'd still argue there's a case for two of these guys on the roster - personally I would take tentacles on them long before claw, and probably two heads too. Given the above changes I dont think I'd take both with only one reroll from the start, so I'll see how one goes anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:15 am 
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My 2 cents:

I with a few others spent a fair bit of time working on Horrors/Tzeentch for both Stunty Leeg and Secret League for FUMBBL. The concepts proved very difficult.

Mutations
Firstly for theme of course, you're right that the niche for this roster should be Mutations. However their thunder is mooted due to the fact that all chaos teams get mutations as regular access since LRB 5 onward. I'd like to see that reversed, however that may be a step backwards due to double access favouring coaches that can put in the game count......something the BBRC wished to counter and a problem with LRB 4 and previous.

So with that in mind....is there a place for a Tzeentch roster? I hope so.

If the mutation access does stay open as regular acces's on all chaos rosters (something I'm not really a fan of) the answer could be to either add some extra 'Tzeentch' mutations....bring back RSC, Spikes or how about the mutation table as a double access? viewtopic.php?f=16&t=42084 I use this table as a double access for teams with a high rate of mutation.....it's a lot of fun.

Daemons
One thing we requested for Stunty Leeg that never happened was a new special rule for Daemons.........something the Khorne roster badly needed IMO. With a new neg trait, you can make Daemons with better stats. What I wanted was to bring back instability. This would work quite like blood lust, however you cannot bite anybody, but a failed roll doesn't cause a turnover.

Horrors
Horrors are a real toothache. So much so even GW/Warhammer scrapped the pink/blue horror concept (which is a bit of a shame). We spent weeks trying to think up a workable concept for Pink/Blue horrors for FUMBBL Secret League. One of the main hurdles there though is client limitations, which is something Table Top doesn't have. It's so much easier to come up with some cool concepts for the Table, that the computer cannot handle.

My suggestion would be that you cannot buy Blue Horrors. Instead when a Pink Horror is killed you get 2 Blue Horrors. Now the problem with this idea is A: how to make this beneficial and B: how to make sure it's not broken.

So a blue horror has to be a player you want to get for your roster, but again isn't broken. Either way it's going to favour the concept that the BBRC wanted to move away from (that being the more games you play, the more beneficial to your team).

Things that could make them beneficial could be:
*If a pink horror dies, he is replaced by 2 blue horrors on the pitch which could take your team over 11 players
*Only blue horrors have right stuff
*If you keep them on the roster, it may take you over 16 rostered players
*Rostered blue horrors do not cost TV

I think for TT, the first idea works quite well and then at the end of the game the player/players is/are removed.


I think with the 3 ideas above (Mutations, Deamons, Horrors) you have masses of scope to make a roster that is very individual and would fit a niche

Spawn

A Chaos Spawn is just about the most stupid creature (or creatures depending on it's make up) in the Warhammer universe. Most definitely one would not come with Bone Head, but would have to have Really Stupid.

A Chaos Spawn has totally lost it's mind and form, and is a mindless...or insane collection of body parts. A curse if you will from the chosen god.

GW changed the law on Chaos Spawn a little around 15 years ago. The old Daemonic steeds were removed and their names became an upgraded Chaos Spawn. One of these being the Beast of Nurgle. So a BoN is an upgraded Chaos Spawn.........which makes it a little troublesome adding Chaos Spawn.

Though if any roster should have something as mutated as a Spawn it should be Tzeentch.

However GW did give us specialist information on the different Spawns:

Beasts of Nurgle drip with slime that burns the ground, their lashing tentacles and rasping tongues infecting their foes with a single caress.
Spawn with long serpentine bodies and many writhing sinuous tentacles are known as Fiends of slaanesh, such creatures race across the battlefield.
The Bloodbeasts of Khorne are masses of muscle and tendon, their many snapping jaws, razor sharp claws and beweaponed tails disembowel with a single sweep.
Most bizarre of all are the Firewyrms of Tzeentch, constantly rippling and shifting with the power of change. Their skin blisters into eyes, maws open on distended limbs, flames lick from screaming orifices and gout out in blasts of purple, red and blue; incinerating those close by.

How this skill manifests is a magic flame/ attck.........Here you could look at the FUMBBL Stunty Leeg Wyrm. Who is a strange beast with AG4 and no hands and throws bombs. A total loon of a player.

So where you'd go with one of these isn't really clear.............but there is a lot of scope.

One roster idea I did for Secret League was on the chosen of chaos. Based on a novel/book idea that chaos warriors that are chosen become daemon princes and those that aren't, cursed to become spawn.

Chaotic Humans
I think Chaotic Humans have become a bit of a mess.

Why does there have to be so many different names? (or potentially). Why can't we keep it simple? I really don't understand the naming policy for the humans in the Khorne Roster. Pit Fighters.......why? They are Marauders like those of the pact team but with a Khorne trait (frenzy). Why not just keep them Marauders or Khorne Marauders?

I'd like to simplify humans in to 3 categories, then give them specialist traits depending on their god

Warriors
5439

Marauders
6338

Cultists/Thugs
6337

This way, you have 3 grades of humans, depending on which fluff (or balancer) you need.

Weaker positionals? Go Marauders. Powerful positionals? Go Cultists/Thugs.

The other problem with Chaos Humans right now is the access. Now, I can see why Pact humans go the access they did. The roster was a spin-off from the old Chaos Allstar roster. And instead of giving them the positionals the Allstars got, they got one standard lino with the access of the allstars (blitzers, mutants and throwers). So this works pretty well.

However the Allstars are something special. Why should other Chaotic Human Linos get weird access. Khorne Human Linos without S access of Pact, but with P access....just highlights why Khorne as a roster idea was so bad under LRB6.

Access for Chaotic Humans needs to be more regimental. Khorne as killers should have S access. Tzeentch as magical mutants should have M access. i.e. better reasoning for the access the players get. And better uniformity with the other Chaotic rosters. A new idea, must fit in with the existing ideas....or the existing ideas tidied up (no reason that Khorne linos don't have P access removed and replaced by S access now that CPOMB has had the 2 brick treatment).

Anyway......I hope I have given you something to think about.


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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:03 pm 
Emerging Star
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Some further thought on the Pink/Blue horror thing...for TT I think I'd go for this:

You may not buy blue horrors. However if a pink horror becomes injured, he is replaced by 2 blue horrors. This may take the HoT team over 11 players for that drive. This may also take the HoT team over 16 players for that match.

However after the drive is finished; the HoT coach may not set up more than 11 for the beginning of subsequent drives. After the match the HoT coach may do the following.

BH: The pink horror manages to re-form itself from the blue horrors and will carry as normal for the next match.
SI: The pink horror will take some time to re-form itself. The pink horror may be replaced by a Journey Man (if this takes the roster under 11 fit players) or a blue horror (it does not matter whether the team has 11 fit players or under).
Killed: The HoT coach can choose to replace the pink horror permanently with a blue horror for no additional cost in gold. Or discard the blue horror entirely.


Tzeentch discs

The idea of cavalry sits badly in Blood Bowl; mainly that being of the 4 legged kind. It was a great day for the Blood Bowl when Lucky Luc was taken around the back of the stable and introduced to Mr Unlucky..........the shotgun.

Bull Centaurs are another oddity............but being an integral part of the Chaos Dwarf society....you can see why they were added.

Squigs are another that we find with Goblins. However being 2 legged, they're more acceptable.

I think a Tzeentch disc would be fine. A disc could take many forms. Animal, Magical, Mechanical or even melded to the rider....whether it'd be classed as a Secret Weapon or not.....I think it probably should.

Anyway, I don't think we'd have to class it as a mount; in the same way we don't class the deathrollered dwarf as mounted.


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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:34 pm 
Legend
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Hi Shteve0,
kudos on sticking your neck out with a roster. It isn't always the most pleasant experience, as anyone with a keyboard and an opinion (both of which are easy to come by) will start picking your work apart.
And sorry for being late to the thead. I wanted to do a reply, then ended up getting so inspired that I'll post my own in another thread. But I do have some comments all the same:

1. I like the general theme and the all-M access.

2. Horrors: I think the TTM idea is awesome. It makes the team very special. And it really suits how the magic of Horrors gets enhanced when more horrors are together. Very nice.
Being a stunty coach, I think this could get very hard to play against, so I'd be cautious with what else is on the roster.
Should Horrors have extra arms? They sure look like it?
Should daemons have regeneration?

3. I'm not crazy about fireball players (Blue horrors). Nor really any kind of splitting rules. I know others love them, but I'm kind of conservative like that. Special rules for any team bother me. I'd rather leave blue horrors (and brimstone horrors) off the roster entirely.

4. Kariac Cultists. Like everyone else, I'm thinking AV8 or AV7+Skull. Not both. I don't see the fluff reason for it, and I'm not sure that the team needs linemen that tough. I may be overestimating the power of TTM, mind you. I suppose playtesting will tell.

5. The new Tzaangor models are awesome, and Tzaangor should definately on the team. Pass block does seem like a loooong stretch though. I think the ability to "foresee" stuff isn't any better portrayed by having pass block than having, say, shadowing or tackle to "foresee" how opponents move. To me, it feels tacked on. Having thought about it, I think a more straightforward fit for what Tzeentch stands for is Pro.

6. Chaos Spawn. I'm not super against 2 Spawn. Not thrilled about it either. I suppose testing will tell if they need them.
One thing that bothers me though is their TTM. Because one TTM on the team is Horror-synergy-magic, while the Spawn TTM appears to be just, you know, throwing team mates. I think they shouldn't have TTM, but maybe something else instead.

Good luck with your team
Cheers
Martin

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