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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Goblin team is expressly mentioned due to the Secret Weapons (and that's only a change since they made SW on-roster).
Neither Mummies or TGs have Loner, and therefore aren't "Big Guy" type players.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38335

But that's not my biggest criticism - it just seems like a random selection of players & skills chucked together and called a Tzeentch roster.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:43 pm 
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Quote:
semantics
semantics
sɪˈmantɪks/Submit
noun
  • the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. The two main areas are logical semantics, concerned with matters such as sense and reference and presupposition and implication, and lexical semantics, concerned with the analysis of word meanings and relations between them.
  • the meaning of a word, phrase, or text.
Yes, it's about what it means. Just because you consider it a BG does not make it one: you do not get to redefine meanings. It is not one because the people who designed them say they are not: they are based on the Blocker template which allows ST5 players, not the Big Guy template which requires loner, negatrait and damage skill. ST5 alone does not a Big Guy make.


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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:00 am 
Legend
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Let's revisit this later - I'm failing to see that two big guys with loner and bone-head is inherently unsuitable at 140k whereas four of the same player with an identical statline but no loner or bonehead would be fine, simply because of a contorted retrofit list. The roster comes first - I believe this team needs a pair of heavies with no kill skills, if you disagree that's fine, but that's really the context. Obviously that list is a useful guide but surely all three of us have been around long enough to be able to see past its limitations. Personally I dont think a strict and literal adherence to those rules should be a precursor to any design, but merely the spirit of them; if you dont that's up to you, objection noted.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:58 am 
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Ha. I'm almost sorry I suggested running this by TFF. Team building by committee may never get built ;)

My biggest issue with this team is the Pink Horror TTM. I like the idea of it, but when you compare to trees (who i think should be the best TTMers in the game) they are simply too good. Mobile, pass access, mutation access. Too good.

A few options:
- drop the Pass access. I feel this is a vital first step and means they'll only ever be as good on the throw as a Tree if they roll a double
- make them less mobile. M5
- increase the cost. 80k may seem expensive already. But they do come with skills that allow for a new play style, as well as mutation access
- new skill (weak arm) that makes -2 instead of -1 to the ttm throw - they are only S3 after all


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 Post subject: Mystic force
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:39 am 
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Sometimes these discussions seem to me like.

Well you should put AV up by one and I dont think ST 4 is justified, and maybe they should have average movement, and ok AG is fine but no skills why would they have them and I think 50K is the right price.

Ah here we go this is balanced

6 3 3 8 None 50K

Ok whats next.....

I am tryimg to be funny please don't slaughter me or take offence. All my funny got used up earlier.....


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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Shteve0 wrote:
Thanks man, I’ll bank these - but as above, the players are meant to fulfil specfic roles and steer the coach to develop them in different ways to typical


Okay, I'll bite. What role does an AV8 Thick Skull Kairic Acolyte lineman fulfill? These guys are modelled shirtless, wearing skirts, helmets and shoulder pads ONLY. How does that AV8 Thick Skull match this? Look at other AV8 players like Dwarf Runners and Orc Throwers or Dark Elf Blitzers -- all much better armored figures than the Kairic Acolyte. What fluff does Thick Skull come from?

For that matter, what fluff reasons would you say a Tzeentch team deserves two big guys when neither Nurgle nor Chaos Chosen have access to this option? (Nor Khorne.) I know you say the team NEEDS them, but I could just as easily argue that every team NEEDS two big guys. What justification does this team have for two of them? (Please do not include the Human Nobility roster in your response. You should be comparing your team against other official teams, not other experimental teams.)

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:10 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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I'm not opposed to more than one Big Guy but do agree that the Thick Skull is out of place, If I could make one change to the team it would be that.

But then again I prefere my roster, with a few tweeks...


Horrors of Tzeentch Teams

0-16 Pink Horrors MA5 ST2 AG3 AV7 Monstrous Mouth, Throw Team-Mate GM/PAS 80,000GP

0-4 Tzaangors MA6 ST3 AG3 AV8 Horns, Pass Block GM/ASP 80,000GP

0-2 Disk Tzaangors MA7 ST3 AG3 AV8 Horns, Sprint, Kick Off Return, Side Step GM/ASP 120,00GP

0-2 Chaos Spawn MA5 ST5 AG2 AV9 Loner, Foul Appearance, Really Stupid, Tentacles, Two Heads M/GASP 140,000GP

0-14 Blue Horrors MA5 ST2 AG3 AV6 Decay, Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty AM/GSP 30,000GP

Apothecary: yes, Rerolls: 50k (Lord of Change)

Special: if a blue horror would land on a player after being thrown by a teammate, or would die by any normal means while on the pitch, the blue horror is immediately killed - mark the square and instead placed in the casualty bin immediately (no apothecary may be used to prevent this death). Then treat the target square as though it had been hit directly by a fireball.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:02 am 
Legend
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I've had a pop at the fluff and purpose of the players - not yet got on to positional design, I'll come to that. Thanks everyone who's posted here or PMed me with thoughts, really appreciate the support :)

GW fluff in italics!

Horrors of Tzeentch

Banned from registering to the certified guild of blood bowl wizards after persisting to turn opposition players into frogs despite the practice being banned in 2499, a number of sorcerers in thrall to the Chaos god Tzeentch have adapted in recent years to a new role as coaches, where despite limited tactical aptitude their abilities to manipulate fate and utilise the unpredictable power of summoned daemons and distorted, mutated spawn has seen some qualified success.

Unfortunately the ascent of such teams into the big leagues was clouded when, in a landmark dispute hearing of 2508, the league determined that when a horror 'split' into separate beings, those beings were prohibited from partaking in a game until their registrations had been carried out by a qualified league official. Even so, for a short while Tzeentch coaches could rely on the shattering of pink horrors into blues to provide a steady stream of free players; until in 2515 the enterprising (if dubious) Agency for Blue Horrors (ABH) formed with the sole aim of cashing in on these players' signing on fees, and hitherto comparatively unrestricted access to 'blues' free of charge rapidly became a thing of the past.

The Lesser Daemons called Horrors are often used as daemonic slaves by the Greater Daemons called Lords of Change. They do not have static material bodies, sometimes taking on a discernible form, at others blurring into a frantic mass of colour as they dash and scramble across the battlefield.


Pink Horror

Unique in their form’s utter unpredictability, Pink Horrors are shapeless masses of solid magic that undulate and transform, cycling through a myriad of different shapes and colours, ever changing, always in a state of becoming. New faces push out against their rubbery hides only to retreat as the section is replaced by a new flap of skin or a nest of writhing tentacles. They amble along, warping everything they touch, spraying showers of multicoloured sparks with incredible bursts.

Their behaviour is no less random. One Pink Horror might caper and gambol about, tearing at its strange flesh, while another shrieks and giggles like the maddest of men. Some grumble and lash out, letting loose terrifying shrieks or streams of nonsense, and others are utterly silent, nearly immobile, trembling with barely contained energy.

Pink Horrors congregate in packs, the magic in their forms harmonising to reach new levels of potency. A single Pink Horror is capable of loosing gouts of eldritch fire, but when gathered in herds, they can change the very fabric of realities, launching waves of changing energy that wreaks havoc with their opponents’ forms as they leap across the battlefield.


Fluff: erratic, unpredictable and unstable, pink horrors provide the defining player type of Horrors of Tzeentch teams. Swallowing the ball in their vast maws in order to protect it, shifting shape with ease, and variously fling themselves, each other, and any other object they can get hold of via eyewateringly unpleasant sequences of symbiosis and mortar-like launching, Pink Horrors present Tzeentch coaches with scoring options from even the most unlikely scenario - provided their probability manipulation talents can outdo those of nuffle, that is!

Blue Horrors

Casting vindictive glares at their enemies and blasting them apart with mystical fire, Blue Horrors are as resentful and bitter as their pink cousins are gleeful and capricious. Muttering glumly, Blue Horrors cast azure flames from their fingertips, stomping and protesting as they do so. Should a Blue Horror be slain, it groans and flashes into flame as a pair of Brimstone Horrors replaces it.

Fluff: Half as large and half as powerful as pink horrors, and with a life expectancy to match, blue horrors are soundly unsuited to such a rough and tumble game. They therefore often find themselves offering little to a Tzeentch coach other than presenting a cheap and expendable resource to be mournfully tossed into the face or crotch of incoming opponents.

Short, mean spirited and volatile, if and when the opportunity provides itself, a blue horror will occasionally split into a pair of flaming brimstone horrors - creating a short lived but extremely spectacular effect not dissimilar to that of a wizard's fireball.

Tzaangors

Savage, avian beasts dedicated to Tzeentch, Tzaangors have been willingly warped into shapes and forms pleasing to the Architect of Fate. They watch and wait, with bestial cunning and cold intelligence, and when the time comes to strike they fight with a bitter strength, hacking with sharp blades and gouging horns. Eager to impress their duplicitous god, they fight with lunatic energies, hoping to be rewarded with further gifts of change.

Fluff: cool, sharp and patient, Tzaangors - in contrast to their Khorne and Nurgle worshipping cousins - favour fast, targeted disruption over brute force. A particular scourge of opposing receivers, Tzaangors can seem to be aware of rival throwers' plans well before they are themselves.

Kairic Acolytes

Human cultists of Tzeentch, Chanters of Change, the Kairic Acolytes have made dire sacrifices for the promise of knowledge and power, spending decades becoming worthy enough to attempt the Kairic Test of Nine. They walk amongst the unsuspecting, remaining covert, waiting patiently until the correct time to strike. When that time comes, they hurl their collective magical might in the form of searing bolts, punishing those who survive with sinister curved blades.

Fluff: regrettably, not all would-be favoured of Tzeentch find themselves adept at a life of intrigue and subtlety, and some of the more muscular and resilient (if not especially intellectually blessed) of those that respond to their calling end up serving the lord of change as, essentially, mobile shields defending the more decorated of Tzeentch's servants on the Blood Bowl field. Doubtless few relish it, but fewer still question it - as the saying goes: "Our Tze'en Knows".

Chaos Spawn

Mind and will completely dissolved into blankness by the corrupting influence of Chaos, the Chaos Spawn lurch and stagger into battle with twisted limbs flailing. Dangerous and unpredictable, the only process left in their brain is the desire to kill - and they do so with a disturbing strength, lashing out at a horrified foe with unnatural strength.

Fluff: Tzeentch coaches are many things, but blind to the fragility and volatility of their charges is not one of them. Through their talents, several have been able to call upon the support of some of the more pliant and less aggressive examples of chaos spawn for their team, who mindless as they are, inevitably end up tasked with locking down opponents in areas of the field where they can do the least damage to the coach's plans.

Hope it makes sense - its interpreted fluff, and theres a bit of licence applied, but feels natural enough to me, and suits the scheming, planned yet apparently random feel of the fluff. Added bonus, I got a couple of crap puns in there!

Next up, player stat and skill discussion!

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:12 am 
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First player profile, the Pink Horror. I reckon we take this guy on first as it sets the tone for the rest of the roster and dictates the rest of the roster roles:

General Team Principles (quick refresher)
* M access everywhere
* No S access or obvious bash development
* Cheap rerolls, but lots of need for them
* Playable as Chaos Halflings [Stunty]
* Prioritise use of crap skills
* Pitch at T1.5 (approx Nurgle and Khorne)

0-4 Pink Horrors, 80,000gps
6338 Monstrous Mouth, Right Stuff, Throw Team-Mate GPM/AS
Role: Ball Carrier, Thrower, Catcher, TTM Thrower

Pink Horrors enable the team to play in a way that no other team can, with mobile and reliable TTM. With that in mind theyre given multiple roles; throwing blues, running the ball, and potential cage breakers.

With both TTM and right stuff they can throw each other or blue horrors down the field for a quick score or to act as a safety. With Monstrous Mouth they can reroll failed catches and are immune to strip ball.

I thought it important for these guys that their stats are as they are: any faster and they would have a problematically long TTM range, any slower and they'd not be developed as ball carriers (which would specialise them further as ttm throwers); AG3 means theyre landing from ttm on a 4+ at best, adding an element of unreliability to what would otherwise be hugely powerful; AV8 makes it much less likely they'll kill themselves after a failed landing than AV7.

Development wise, I'm thinking Extra Arms looks a shoe-in, turning a 3+ catch or pickup into a 2+ (appropriate, given the models). Two heads, horns, block, strip ball all also appeal. Dodge and Guard are the obvious doubles, and I'd take MA, ST or AG on these guys too.

An alternative to the GPM access might be GAM, with P switching to the Tzaangors (primarily for leader access), if the P access on TTM proves too good.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:49 pm 
Legend
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0-14 Blue Horrors MA5 ST2 AG3 AV6 Decay, Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty AM/GSP 30,000GP

Special: if a blue horror would land on a player after being thrown by a teammate, or would die by any normal means while on the pitch, the blue horror is immediately killed - mark the square and instead placed in the casualty bin immediately (no apothecary may be used to prevent this death). Then treat the target square as though it had been hit directly by a fireball.

As half a pink horror, blue horrors have a halflings statline; av6 is marginally more than twice as likely as av8 to break, st2 is functionally (if not numerically) half st3, stunty conveys both the sense that theyre half the size and increases the odds of removing them and I've added decay as it makes them twice as likely to be killed if they sustain an injury. Ma5 is preffered to 6 because it makes them less appealing a ttm scorer than the more expensive and limited pink.

The traditional way of treating a pink splitting into two blues is fun, but creates a real headache in terms of player placement. In the end I just went with purchasable blues for mechanical reasons and, rather than titchy Brimstone Horrors, took the shorter lifespan up a notch and had them act as very short lived flames, creating a fireball effect and giving the blues a secondary purpose (and huge downside, if you leave them too close to your own cage!). Again this plays nicely with decay, giving the double injury roll an in-game effect.

The blues I've got at 0-14 (were 0-12 before Moraiwe pointed out the wording o the journeymen rule) to allow coaches to take a deep bench of bomb fodder if they want, or to allow an alternative build that uses just blues and spawn if desired.

Development wise there's not much you want to expect from these guys, due to the likelihood of them being killed at a moments notice. Big Hand is an obvious pick for one, so that if the ball can be fireballed loose there's a recovery option from the cage, and sits nicely with old school miniatures; horns, two heads and extra arms also have benefits, though planning for more than one with a skill is probably unrealistic.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:20 pm 
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Quote:
0-2 Chaos Spawn MA5 ST5 AG2 AV9 Loner, Foul Appearance, Really Stupid, Tentacles, Two Heads M/GASP 140,000GP

terrible perspective of évolution for this player, which has already 3 of the 9 mutation skills
if you don't want to give him S access, why not A access on simple?

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:44 am 
Legend
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Hi babass, be careful when youre quoting mate - that's not the spawn build I put forward, I think maybe you've quoted frogboy intead?

I have to say, Im not a huge fan either, but nor do I think adding agility would be a good solution. Aside from the lack of development options and the skill combo being too strong out of the box, an ag2 st5 player with tentacles, two heads and access to dodge on singles would be crazy good after just one skill. There are some good ingredients there, but ideally the coach would have to work a little harder to unlock them.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:45 am 
Legend
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If I can take us back to the original roster (and past the halfway mark!), a quick piece on the Tzaangors.

0-2 Tzaangors (Blitzer) MA6 ST3 AG3 AV8 Disturbing Presence, Horns, Pass Block GM/ASP 80,000GP

So far we've got 0-4 ball carriers/handlers and a bunch of exploding halflings with decay. That's enough to put together the odd elaborate play but not really to build a team around - despite all the potential, the horrors element surely can't be seen as reliable, which fits with their fluff, but some more targeted defensive disruption would sit well with Tzeentch's future sight theme.

As I understand it, Tzaangors are Tzeentch's mortal dudes, and are included here as basic beastmen without S access and with added disruption potential. I like pass block, because combined with disturbing presence and the addition of two heads, block, tackle, and maybe prehensile tail, can make for a very effective anti-passing play, which given the deliberate absence of bash on the roster I'd expect to otherwise be a major weakness.

These guys are limited to two partly to encourage development of them into all round safeties rather than specialists and partly to keep the focus of the team on the horrors.

Alternative options for the player might be the addition of P access for Leader; though I think there are already so many skills you want on these guys that it would be a shame to weigh them down that way. Still, if the pinks were to swap to GAM, GPM tzaangors would be an obvious route to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:01 am 
Legend
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Acolytes

Just to reiterate - I'm looking at this roster as four pinks, two tzaangors so far - what blues I'd look at for the numbers 12-16 on my roster as bombs and utility subs, with maybe 0 or 1 in my starting 11. The linemen in this team definitely have a role to play then, not a world away from human, orc or slann linemen, as unglamorous utility players; or even zombies.

Without the high ag superstars of the four elves, skaven or even vampires, or the wall of durability of chaos dwarfs, khemri etc, both 50k and av7 just seem too low from a practical perspective - you're going to be lining them up on your LOS against stronger teams (which there are lots of) and its important they can take a punch. Av9 would obviously be ridiculous, but av8 and thick skull would do the job.

(Quick note - I realise that some don't like the idea that the kairic acolyte figures clearly represent av8 models. I suspect that once that's your view its fair enough, and difficult to change it; but I'd ask you to look for precedence in khorne pit fighters, chaos beastmen, nurgle rotters, chaos pact marauders to name but a few for av8 players frequently modelled with similar or less armour, and skeletons for an example of thick skull on a player to represent indefatigability; to bear in mind that the player role on the pitch requires taking hits from stronger players; and if all else fails then accept that if anyone can make an av8 player look like av7, or change a ko result into a stun, its Tzeentch!)

From a skill access and development perspective, I'm looking at the classic human lineman skills of wrestle, block, tackle and perhaps fend; though depending on stat rolls and doubles some of the mutation skills could come into play.

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 Post subject: Re: Playable 'Horrors of Tzeentch' roster
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:02 am 
Legend
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Last but not least - the Chaos Spawn.

Remember the design principles of the team mean that I think we're looking for a big player suitable to carry as many mutations as possible except potentially claw. Pretty much every team with M access I've ever seen has wanted to use claw as a can opener; for me it was really important that this player made better use of other skills in the M access category. So straight away, S access is out, as is MB or Claw to start.

Looking at what's left in the category, the prime candidates of a player this type are two heads, extra arms, tentacles, foul appearance, horns and prehensile tail. Given the team's lack of bash potential, making a player that can hold fast and agile players has definite value, so a player that can make use of tentacles and two heads to become a mobile ball of too has definite appeal, so ma5, st5, ag2 look like great matches. Since they're not bashers, I'm at ease with 0-2 of these guys, and since theyre vulnerable to opposition hitters, AV9 and a defensive skill (foul appearance, thick skull, regeneration) sit well too.

Finally I'm aiming for a player at around 140k. Higher than that and I'd be concerned they were too powerful; lower and there wouldn't be the tough starting roster decisions that I'd hope we'd end up at, in terms of balancing the horrors and gor against running two spawn.

Assuming the above I think there are two decent options here.

One is to build the player as a big guy. That takes the 5529 stat line, adds loner, bone-head and TTM, and picks foul appearance from the defensive skills. If its overpowered, really stupid looks good in for bone-head, or always hungry as a comedy exploding head routine when combined with blues; if too weak, maybe add thick skull for free.

The second is to build from a blocker base, at 5529 foul appearance. That player lacks bone-head, loner and throw team mate, but becomes a good option to carry the ball with two heads and extra arms.

We leaned towards the first for big guy for three reasons. The first is that a stunty option roster appeals to me, and the st5 players I think needs a [loner] ttm option to do that. The second is that I'd be concerned that the potential for developing a ball carrier spawn with foul appearance is too good to turn down, especially with a lucky 6+5 roll in its first three skills, which would change the role of the pinks too far away from the intended function. And the third is that without loner or bone-head the lack of drawbacks to throwing blocks kind of break the principle of their role in the team. Perhaps the addition of loner could resolve the last two issues though?

Deveoplment wise, I'd say this player looks like being the best candidate for tentacles in the game (outside of the BoN). Two heads also looks good, perhaps with extra arms on one, and prehensile tail on the other?; on doubles, block, stand firm, sidestep and dodge all look like really good picks.

And there we have it. Thoughts appreciated!

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