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 Post subject: Helping the passing game
 Post Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:46 am 
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I'm not saying the game is broken, but I hear a lot of people express the idea that they wish the passing game was not so deplorable. The problem then becomes how to change it without significantly shifting the balance of strengths, especially of the elf teams. I have had a few ideas, and I wanted to present the simplest one for feedback. I know there are pros and cons of it, but I want to find out what others see them to be.

Fumbles only occur on an unmodified roll of one.
Inaccurate passes only scatter twice.

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 Post subject: Re: Helping the passing game
 Post Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:44 am 
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CyberedElf wrote:
Fumbles only occur on an unmodified roll of one.


Wouldn't that make safe throw even worse?

CyberedElf wrote:
Inaccurate passes only scatter twice.


Isn't the three square scatter in a way a good thing, as the ball could theoretically get back to the intended square/receiver?
Sure, it would make diving catch better, which might be good.

It also has a negative effect on throw team mate, which would be a shame.

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 Post subject: Re: Helping the passing game
 Post Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:35 pm 
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Pedda wrote:
It also has a negative effect on throw team mate, which would be a shame.

Not really - you just add a line to TTM saying it always scatters 3 times.

I've always thought the amount of scatters should be linked to the range the ball is thrown - something like:
QP = 1 Scatter
SP = 2 scatters
LP/LB = 3 scatters

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 Post subject: Re: Helping the passing game
 Post Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 5:21 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35377

1. Adjust the Pass skill.
Quote:
Pass (Passing)
A player with the Pass skill is allowed to re-roll the D6 if he throws an inaccurate pass or fumbles. Additionally, if the first pass roll succeeds then the pass has been particularly good, making it easier for the target player to catch (or the thrown player to orientate himself, and the reroll may be used on the catch or landing roll instead.

This transfers the risk from the thrower to the catcher and improves the passing odds by up to 20% for low AG teams and under 10% for high AG teams. This overall improvement will require a nerf of some sort – more on that later.
The “or landing” bit is purely thrown in as an idea. You can see from the stats how few TTM attempts work, so I thought this might be an option to buff that.
2. Remove the Catch skill. It’s rather nugatory given the above, although it does have use for handoffs, interceptions and the like, which is why the next point is in:
3. Adjust the Diving Catch skill.
Quote:
Diving Catch (Agility)
The player is superb at diving to catch balls others cannot reach and jumping to more easily catch perfect passes. The player may add 1 to any catch roll from an accurate pass targeted to his square. In addition, the player can attempt to catch any pass, kick off or crowd throw-in, but not bouncing ball, that would land in an empty square in one of his tackle zones as if it had landed in his own square without leaving his current square. A failed catch will bounce from the Diving Catch player's square. If there are two or more players attempting to use this skill then they get in each other"s way and neither can use it.
Additionally, it also allows the player to re-roll the D6 if he drops a hand-off or fails to make an interception.

The effect of this is that a skill which I rarely see (not sure about the objective frequency) is buffed considerably by mixing it with another subjectively rarely taken skill.
In terms of the odds, this increases the odds for passing to AG2 and 3 players while having a minimal effect on AG4 targets.

A spreadsheet of the effect on the odds of the above changes can be found here: http://www.mediafire.com/?71u8f5cbiejs37b
or in this googledoc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... XFfU3U1RXc
The top of each worksheet is the basic passing stuff for passers from AG2 to AG5, with skills added in the bit below. The overall passing odds from start to end are all headed by “AGX Catcher” from AG2 to 4 with the skills (catch or DC) in the second column of tables. The first sheet is the current odds under the current ruleset, the second is the odds under my proposals above, and the third is the change in those odds (absolute change, so a change from 40% to 60% would show up as 20).
Importantly, the odds of fumbles and missed passes stay exactly the same. The odds of the catcher dropping the pass have been reduced across the board though, although by more for low AG teams than high AG teams. Furthermore, we’ve removed a skill which is on several starting rosters. To compensate I propose the following further changes:
4. Players who start with Catch get Diving Catch instead
This will allow humans and Amazons to take full advantage while allowing the AG4 players to take advantage of any missed passes while maintaining ball-handling capability in the form of RRs for interceptions and hand-offs.
5. Increase Pass Block range to 4 squares
This is to make the use of passing a touch more difficult. If passing becomes a more popular tactic due to this then PB will itself become more useful, and a 4 square allowance will mean that a single pass-blocker may be able to become a thorn in the side of a passing team.

Because the above changes are to A and P skills this should have a small effect on the bash teams who have little ability to take them. Orcs might take a few more goblins

tl;dr version
- Some teams are passing very little at all
- Those teams are generally AG3 with A and P access players
- Adjusting Pass and Diving Catch, while removing Catch as a skill buffs passing across the board but more for lower AG players, and may lead to an increase on the uptake of those skills.
- Buffing Pass Block will nerf passing a little across the board and encourage uptake of that skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Helping the passing game
 Post Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 10:30 pm 
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Pedda wrote:
CyberedElf wrote:
Fumbles only occur on an unmodified roll of one.


Wouldn't that make safe throw even worse?

CyberedElf wrote:
Inaccurate passes only scatter twice.


Isn't the three square scatter in a way a good thing, as the ball could theoretically get back to the intended square/receiver?
Sure, it would make diving catch better, which might be good.

It also has a negative effect on throw team mate, which would be a shame.

Thanks for giving feedback. Yes, it would make Safe Throw worse. My only counter to that is if passing is more common Safe Throw could be useful more often.
Chance of returning to receiver with two scatter is 12.5%. Chance of returning to receiver with three scatter is 4.7%.
Chance of catchable with Diving Catch available and two scatter is 50%. Chancing of catchable with Diving Catch available and three scatter is 46.9%.
(I did not calculate for bounce after inaccurate scatter.)

As far as TTM for TD, it makes it easier for goblins. Also, easier for Halfling and Ogre if thrown from one across LOS. Since stunties have few skill choices before Diving Catch and the -1 to passing won't cause fumble, I think stunties would see a net gain. Not to mention using TTM to target cages becomes much better.
Darkson wrote:
QP = 1 Scatter
SP = 2 scatters
LP/LB = 3 scatters

I was also considering something like this, but wanted to start with my most simple idea first.

I appreciate Dode's link to another thread with analysis. I do not dislike his proposal, but I was looking to come up with something simpler.

The biggest con I see to my idea is how it relates to punting, especially punting away from within tackle zones. This could be strategy altering outside desired limits.
Less inaccurate scatter always helps passing the ball.
Changing the fumble rule has a larger impact on the teams with lower agility or Stunty.
My biggest concern besides punting out of tackle zones is disproportionate boost to Skaven, but I would not expect it to be game breaking.

Any other ideas for negative impacts or why my two concerns above could be worse than I fear?

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