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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:45 am 
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garion wrote:
hmm didnt know about the rats in lustria, that said I still don't like it. Skaven are pure evil and zons are good imo.
I just don't like skaven playing with anything other than Chaos aligned it seems very wrong.

You could go 2 kroxigor, 1 being the krox the other being the giant toad from slann with the big tongue standing in for the prehensile tail.


Well, that's why I gave pretty much everyone Animosity. I think if you tried to do separate Good Lustrian and Bad Lustrian teams, you simply wouldn't have enough player types for either. I tried to build this as a "neutral" team, with a little of both good (Saurus, Skinks) and evil (Vampire, Skaven) with a healthy chunk of neutral (Amazons/Norse) in between.

I mean, if I *really* had my choice, I'd do something like this:

0-6 Amazon Linewoman
0-6 Norse Lineman
0-2 Skink
0-2 Saurus
0-1 Vampire
0-1 Kroxigor

But that breaks a TON of rules of team creation, so while I think it would create a more "flavorful" Lustrian team, I think it would be a bear to playtest. Even looking at it now, I'm not sure it's even remotely balanced.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:55 am 
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Darkson wrote:
Milo wrote:
Now that's a fair cop -- Clan Moulder has most of the Rat Ogres, not Clan Pestilens. I don't think it's TOO much of a stretch to say that Clan Pestilens has one on loan from Clan Moulder -- it's not like they are banned from WHFB Clan Pestilens armies, I don't think -- but I can understand the concern.

A "loan" player really doesn't fit with it being a Lustrian team then.
Tbh, I think a DE lineman (from the north) works better than a loanee from the Old World.

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But is this team viable with just a Kroxigor and a Vampire?

Probably - it's got more starting skills than a Pact team, and another ST4 player.
Plus better to start a bit underpowered (if if is) and improve than the other way round.


Is Naggaroth north of Lustria? Certainly there are a lot of Dark Elf Corsairs who presumably have encountered Lustria. But with the speed of the Skink and the 4AG of the Vampire, I don't know that this team needs another 4AG player. I was honestly including the Skaven for fluff reasons and to allow the Rat Ogre as a third big guy.

I agree that it's better to start low and build up. Do you think it would be better based on the Norse linemen instead of the Amazon linemen? I mean, sure, they all get to start with Block, but it's much harder for them to get Blodge. I might be inclined to split the linemen except then you have to do some special handling with the Journeymen rules. Perhaps set both Amazon Linewomen and Norse Linemen as 0-12 positions? What do you think about that?

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Milo wrote:
Is Naggaroth north of Lustria?

Yes - it's the analogue of North America to Lustria's South.

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But with the speed of the Skink and the 4AG of the Vampire, I don't know that this team needs another 4AG player.

I'd prefer a DE Lino to a RO, plus it's different to Pact - only one BG but more ball handlers/"positionals".

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I might be inclined to split the linemen except then you have to do some special handling with the Journeymen rules. Perhaps set both Amazon Linewomen and Norse Linemen as 0-12 positions? What do you think about that?

I'd rather fudge the Journeyman rule (seems not having special rules is a thing of the past now) and go 0-6/0-6.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
I'd rather fudge the Journeyman rule (seems not having special rules is a thing of the past now) and go 0-6/0-6.


0-6 Amazon Linewoman 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Animosity G ASP
0-6 Norse Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block, Animosity G ASP
0-2 Skink 60,000 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Animosity A GSP
0-2 Saurus 80,000 6 4 1 9 None, Animosity GS AP
0-2 Slann 60,000 6 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Vampire 110,000 6 4 4 8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate, Animosity GAS P
0-1 Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull, Animosity S GAP

0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each

Special rules:
Journeymen can be selected from either 0-6 position, so long as limits are not exceeded.
Vampire can bite either Amazon Linewomen or Norse Linemen instead of Thralls.

This is distinctly different from the Chaos Pact team, and perhaps the Lizard/Frog contingent should be limited to 1 each, but it just makes a certain sense to me to have 6 Amazons/6 Norse/6 Lizards. (Another possibility could be 2 Skinks and 1 each of the Saurus and Slann.) I can understand the appeal of the Dark Elf lineman, but I'm hesitant to add it for three reasons:

1) If a Skaven is too evil to be on a "neutral" Lustrian team, isn't a Dark Elf?
2) Already on the Chaos Pact team
3) Naggaroth is not Lustria (although I can understand how they could be found there.)

I'd rather playtest the above version and see how it plays before deciding to add an AG4 non-BG player onto a team that also has a ST4 player.

Another note: Not sure if the Skink and Saurus should have Animosity to each other, although you could probably make an argument that the team is an uneasy alliance and the skill represents general lack of cohesion. It really only matters if a Saurus tries to hand off to a Skink, though, because no one in their right mind would try to pass the ball to a Saurus.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:51 pm 
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I still think you should put the Skaven back in the team, the only reason not to (imo) has been Garion's misunderstanding of alignment. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:09 am 
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Darkson wrote:
I still think you should put the Skaven back in the team, the only reason not to (imo) has been Garion's misunderstanding of alignment. ;)


Well, I agree from a fluff perspective that the Skaven could exist in a Lustrian team. But if we're breaking the rules, anyways, I'd just as soon have the good, neutral, and evil multi-race teams have no cross-over in terms of player types (excepting Ogres).

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:42 pm 
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Milo wrote:
But if we're breaking the rules, anyways, I'd just as soon have the good, neutral, and evil multi-race teams have no cross-over in terms of player types (excepting Ogres).

So the good team is only having dwarfs and elfs (and maybe halflings)?

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:51 am 
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Darkson wrote:
I still think you should put the Skaven back in the team, the only reason not to (imo) has been Garion's misunderstanding of alignment. ;)


:D
pfft. I still think zons are "good" I know they are descendants of norse who are neutral but they are their own thing now, and not listed in 2nd eds alignment.

But while we could argue whether zons are neutral or good, for me this doesn't matter. A Lustrian team for me should represent the thematics of the region more. Skaven and vamps just feel too bolted on.

for me the only roster here I would be at all happy with is one with players from zons, slann, and lizardmen, and possibly pygmy if you really wanted. Though its not needed. These are the races that really fit the jungle thematics, inca, aztec based dress etc....

This roster you posted is the closest so far imo -

0-6 Amazon Linewoman
0-6 Norse Lineman
0-2 Skink
0-2 Saurus
0-1 Vampire
0-1 Kroxigor


I would probably just go -

0-16 Amazon linewoman
0-2 Skinks
0-2 Saurus
0-2 slann
0-1 krox

This way the main races of the region are all there. They all tie in together with the Inca/Aztec thematics. They all "look right" together. For me sticking a vamp, skaven or dark elf in there sticks out like a sore thumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:12 pm 
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garion wrote:
But while we could argue whether zons are neutral or good, for me this doesn't matter. A Lustrian team for me should represent the thematics of the region more. Skaven and vamps just feel too bolted on.


But only because you are ignoring all of the background I have previously cited indicating that both the Vampires AND the Skaven have had long term and significant footholds in the Lustria continent in GW's writings.

garion wrote:
for me the only roster here I would be at all happy with is one with players from zons, slann, and lizardmen, and possibly pygmy if you really wanted. Though its not needed. These are the races that really fit the jungle thematics, inca, aztec based dress etc....

This way the main races of the region are all there. They all tie in together with the Inca/Aztec thematics. They all "look right" together. For me sticking a vamp, skaven or dark elf in there sticks out like a sore thumb.


Can you cite any background about pygmys in Lustria or Blood Bowl? I know back in the 80s Citadel made some pygmy figures, but my google search for "Games Workshop Lustria Pygmy" only turned up some blog postings.

Maybe the issue is you're trying to design a "Jungle" mixed-race team, whereas I'm trying to create a "Lustrian" mixed-race team. There's definitely background I can cite (and have, repeatedly) to justify inclusion of the Norse and Vampires (and even the Skaven), and I think they make for a more interesting team. Of course, you could still take my roster and build the team the way you want to, and simply not take a Vampire or Norsemen, if YOU feel that fits the fluff better.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
Milo wrote:
But if we're breaking the rules, anyways, I'd just as soon have the good, neutral, and evil multi-race teams have no cross-over in terms of player types (excepting Ogres).

So the good team is only having dwarfs and elfs (and maybe halflings)?


Okay, granted that good "Human Linemen" and evil "Chaos Renegades" are very similar, but Human Linemen do not get mutation or passing skill access. Even the good and evil Ogres are differentiated by this point.

I could see adding the Skaven Lineman as an option to the Lustrian team, or creating a unique Plague Monk Skaven that starts with Foul Appearance. From a fluff perspective, I think it would fit just fine. But in terms of team design, I'm just not sure it's necessary. You already have fast players in the Skinks, which limits the value of the Skaven Lineman to this team. Even in the Chaos Pact team, you don't see Skaven being a guaranteed pick by many coaches.

Maybe a better way to handle adding the Skaven to the Lustrian team could be found in the Chaos Pact and Chaos Dwarves. There's no Chaos Dwarf on the Pact team, but they can hire Zzharg Madeye as a star player. Similarly, perhaps Fezglitch should be selectable by the Lustrian team as he is a Plague Censer bearer, and in keeping with the Clan Pestilens presence in Lustria. That would enable Lustrian teams to field a Skaven player if they wanted to, and Fezglitch would serve a unique purpose on the team.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Milo wrote:
Okay, granted that good "Human Linemen" and evil "Chaos Renegades" are very similar, but Human Linemen do not get mutation or passing skill access. Even the good and evil Ogres are differentiated by this point.
I was more pointing out the contradiction in your stance - you say you keep the good/neutral/evil separate, but then you add neutral humans to the good team while not having them on the neutral team.
That said, Fezglitch would be a good shout (if I can't persuade you to add it back in to the main roster).

Milo wrote:
Can you cite any background about pygmys in Lustria or Blood Bowl?
I'm going to back garion on this one - in 3rd ed WFB the Pygmies were a Mercenary/Ally contingent for the Slann army, and White Dwarf 100 had a scenario with Pygmies at a Slann pyramid.
Code:
Basic Pygmy 4/3/3/2/2/1/7/7/7/7
Basic Human 4/3/3/3/3/1/7/7/7/7


So, to stay true to all the fluff you need to have Slann, Lizardmen, Vampires, Zombies (for the Vamps), Amazons, Norse, Skaven and Pygmies, which probably satisfies neither of you. ;) :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
Milo wrote:
Okay, granted that good "Human Linemen" and evil "Chaos Renegades" are very similar, but Human Linemen do not get mutation or passing skill access. Even the good and evil Ogres are differentiated by this point.
I was more pointing out the contradiction in your stance - you say you keep the good/neutral/evil separate, but then you add neutral humans to the good team while not having them on the neutral team.
That said, Fezglitch would be a good shout (if I can't persuade you to add it back in to the main roster).

Milo wrote:
Can you cite any background about pygmys in Lustria or Blood Bowl?
I'm going to back garion on this one - in 3rd ed WFB the Pygmies were a Mercenary/Ally contingent for the Slann army, and White Dwarf 100 had a scenario with Pygmies at a Slann pyramid.
Code:
Basic Pygmy 4/3/3/2/2/1/7/7/7/7
Basic Human 4/3/3/3/3/1/7/7/7/7


So, to stay true to all the fluff you need to have Slann, Lizardmen, Vampires, Zombies (for the Vamps), Amazons, Norse, Skaven and Pygmies, which probably satisfies neither of you. ;) :lol:


Yeah, I thought about the Zombies as well, but I figured that while a Vampire might make common cause with the other members of the team (as Luthor would for human teams), bringing along a couple of his rotty friends would be a bridge too far.

What role would the Pygmys have on the team? I imagine their statline to be identical to either a Halfling or a Goblin -- perhaps Snotling? Since we already have the Stunty Skinks on the team, it just seems duplicative to have the Pygmys. I suppose if they were Titchy, that would be something interesting and unique to the team. Looking at the Chaos Renegade team, all of the Renegade races give you SOMETHING that the team lacks: Goblin - Stunty, Right Stuff, Dark Elf - AG4, Skaven - MA7, Orc - AV9. What would Pygmys give that Skinks don't already provide?

Here's a couple of ideas:

LUSTRIAN TEAM A

0-6 Amazon Linewoman 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Animosity G ASP
0-6 Norse Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block, Animosity G ASP
0-2 Skink 60,000 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Animosity A GSP
0-1 Pygmy 20,000 5 1 3 5 Dodge, Right Stuff, Side Step, Stunty, Titchy A GSP
0-1 Skaven Lineman 50,000 7 3 3 7 G ASPM
0-1 Saurus 80,000 6 4 1 9 None, Animosity GS AP
0-1 Slann 60,000 6 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Vampire 110,000 6 4 4 8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate, Animosity GAS P
0-1 Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull, Animosity S GAP

0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each

Special rules:
Journeymen can be selected from either 0-6 position, so long as limits are not exceeded.
Vampire can bite either Amazon Linewomen or Norse Linemen instead of Thralls.


OR


LUSTRIAN TEAM B

0-12 Skink 60,000 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Animosity A GSP
0-2 Amazon Linewoman 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Animosity G ASP
0-2 Norse Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Pygmy 20,000 5 1 3 5 Dodge, Right Stuff, Side Step, Stunty, Titchy A GSP
0-1 Skaven Lineman 50,000 7 3 3 7 G ASPM
0-1 Saurus 80,000 6 4 1 9 None, Animosity GS AP
0-1 Slann 60,000 6 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs, Animosity G ASP
0-1 Vampire 110,000 6 4 4 8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate, Animosity GAS P
0-1 Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull, Animosity S GAP

0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each

Special rules:
Journeymen can be selected from either 0-6 position, so long as limits are not exceeded.
Vampire can bite either Amazon Linewomen or Norse Linemen instead of Thralls.


Team B would swap out the Norse/Amazons for Skinks as the primary linemen, but leave you 0-2 Norse Linemen to be Blitzer types and 0-2 Amazon Linewomen to be Catchers. You'd have both Skinks and a Pygmy to run through the lines, but no TTM Big Guy to toss them. (Unless you hire Morg as a star.) The Saurus and the Slann could be blitzer types as well, one going over the line and the other one going more or less through it.

I think both of these teams would offer a very different play style to the Renegade team, giving them a unique spot in the meta.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:37 pm 
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I don't think Pygmies are analogue with Snotlings - if anything, they should be closer to goblins than halflings.

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:39 am 
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Darkson wrote:
I don't think Pygmies are analogue with Snotlings - if anything, they should be closer to goblins than halflings.


Granted, but what purpose would a pygmy goblin serve on a team with no TTM and Skinks already on it?

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 Post subject: Re: Old World and Lustrian Teams
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:45 am 
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Milo wrote:
garion wrote:
But while we could argue whether zons are neutral or good, for me this doesn't matter. A Lustrian team for me should represent the thematics of the region more. Skaven and vamps just feel too bolted on.


But only because you are ignoring all of the background I have previously cited indicating that both the Vampires AND the Skaven have had long term and significant footholds in the Lustria continent in GW's writings.

garion wrote:
for me the only roster here I would be at all happy with is one with players from zons, slann, and lizardmen, and possibly pygmy if you really wanted. Though its not needed. These are the races that really fit the jungle thematics, inca, aztec based dress etc....

This way the main races of the region are all there. They all tie in together with the Inca/Aztec thematics. They all "look right" together. For me sticking a vamp, skaven or dark elf in there sticks out like a sore thumb.


Can you cite any background about pygmys in Lustria or Blood Bowl? I know back in the 80s Citadel made some pygmy figures, but my google search for "Games Workshop Lustria Pygmy" only turned up some blog postings.

Maybe the issue is you're trying to design a "Jungle" mixed-race team, whereas I'm trying to create a "Lustrian" mixed-race team. There's definitely background I can cite (and have, repeatedly) to justify inclusion of the Norse and Vampires (and even the Skaven), and I think they make for a more interesting team. Of course, you could still take my roster and build the team the way you want to, and simply not take a Vampire or Norsemen, if YOU feel that fits the fluff better.


Sure, I'm not disputing that those races, creatures etc.. exist in Lustria. In warhammer pretty much all the races have strongholds of some description all over the world, GW did this on purpose do battles could be justified between all races, no matter what setting you make the battle in.

It just comes down to personal taste really. For me you have to look at their homelands and their strong links. While Norse do have settlements outside Norsca, their real home is Norsca just north of Kislev in the Old World. So I personally would rather see them in a pact team of that region Norse, Dwarfs, (as there is a strong tie between those races, there was even Norse Dwarfs back in the day), humans and flings.

Similarly vampires are found all over, but their home land is Sylvania mainly. Skaven are a bit different, sure Skavenblight is under the empire iirc. But they are found everywhere and if its to your taste you could include them in a Lustria roster, however I am pretty confident that if you ever released an official "Lustria Pact" with a Skaven player in you would get a fair bit of kick back as skaven are just sooooooooo evil, to me it just doesn't feel right aesthetically. Again if you wanted vamps in a pact team I would rather one that was an undead pact. I just don't think it fits, the zons would be less than happy having a vampire in the dressing room.

Pymgies - So there is very little, Darkson has already pointed out that slann and Pymgies are linked. In 2nd ed companion there was as team called Spearcamp Chieftains, which imo would have been Pygmy themed given that 2nd ed release coincided with 3rd ed wfb . Their stat line would be st2 rather than 1. they are more akin to flings and gobos in size. They certainly don't have to be included though as you say they don't really bring much. Was just a suggestion. I run a Pymgy team in a league and they are ag4 stunties, no big guy, 191 games 46.07% win percentage. One of the most fun rosters I've ever played with. Its not much of a stretch either imo, as we had ag5 fling catchers in 2nd ed. Which would equate to ag4 players now, while the standard fling got ag3 stunty when changed from 2nd to 3rd. Though I don't think you actually need to create any new players, a Zon, Slann, Lizardmen mix gives you a decent amount of options.

I can't check currently as all my stuff is in storage (currently moving house which sucks) but there is a BB mag. I think issue 4 maybe???, that has a bunch of lustrian stuff in it. Whichever edition of the magazine that is, it has a map of Lustria, with blood bowl stadiums on and settlements iirc. I cant remember exactly what's on there but pretty sure its got zon, lizardman and Slann stuff on it. Deffo worth checking out if you have it to hand. If not once I get my stuff out of storage I will post back here. There is also a fluff piece that described the difficulties faced when playing against chameleon skinks and that they were basically invisible, tripping unsuspecting opposition up. There is also some stuff for a lustiran weather table, and Jungle bowl i think.


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