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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:27 pm 
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@dode74, I personally don't see much sense in spending one more hour solving an already solved problem. We have somewhat different viewpoint on the game, it seems :) Can't be helped, whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:29 pm 
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You change the problem to enjoy the game, like I said. Game won? Pitch clear. Game lost? Don't pitch clear, level a player, kill an opposing player, whatever. There is more than one "problem" in BB.


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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:29 pm 
Legend
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Mori-mori wrote:
Isn't it a bit too harsh and devoid of any sense?
No

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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:31 am 
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If you're incapable of enjoying a game when you've been comprehensively beaten, you're playing the wrong game.


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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:18 am 
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Moraiwe wrote:
If you're incapable of enjoying a game when you've been comprehensively beaten, you're playing the wrong game.

Yea, that's probably why I've been playing this game for many years :) Because I hate myself, but don't have courage to accept it. No, I'm ok playing a game where I've got bad odds and can't win - as long as I'm playing a game. When you are outnumbered and surrounded on the pitch to the point you can't dodge anywhere without stepping in a tackle zone, or two, and can't block anything within your reach without red dices, you don't play a game - you don't engage in voluntary activity, you don't make decisions, you just rolling dices, hoping for the best.

The problem here is that's not problem for me. Even if I'm not allowed to concede, I still just have an option to lie on the ground with all my players, hitting End Turn right away, may be except for one I'll be blitzing with on red dices each turn, just for the sake of it, he'll be down shortly anyway as well. That will open me for 1 foul per turn, but if I'll stand them up while being outnumbered, say, 2 to 1, that will be still 1 foul plus a bunch of Knock Downs. And by following this "tactic" I'll speed up the resolution of this meaningless fight greatly. The question is - is it really the kind of game you want to play? :) May be some kind of auto-resolution sequence for such kind of stalemates would be more beneficial to both parties?

Edit:
And I remember points @dode74 made. I just can't wrap my head around it, though.


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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:22 am 
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So what is the ideal result of a game of Blood Bowl going to be? Maybe change the name to Panzy Bowl.

It makes me angry when people concede, i send them PMs and they ignor them. Maybe its just not worth there time to respond, they already shown that they will only spend time in a game if there winning, winning or whining (usally followed by conceding, the worst kind of oppenents). I know some people who have quit playing online at all because of this problem.

TT is much better, seeing the tears in little johnnys eyes well up as you crush his last remaining player and a little bit of his soul at the same time, the TO standing close by his side holding his hand, trying desperately to comfort him as you stall out to maximize blocks, but its too late for comfort, the pain train has already left and well on the way to destination oblivion.

WHOOO WHOOOOO!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:52 am 
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Mori-mori - it appears to me that you want to quit just because things are getting hard. Well, don't. Use some grit and make the fight fun. You claim "it's not a game" any more but it absolutely is: you always have a chance to get away with crazy stuff, and the key is to try. If it works then it's wonderful, and if it doesn't you go down in a blaze of glory. It's only meaningless when *you* make it meaningless.


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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:13 pm 
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frogboy wrote:
So what is the ideal result of a game of Blood Bowl going to be?

Ideal result for me in the described situation would be to, say, auto-resolve the rest of the match to save some time. Good, may be I just need to come up with an example to explain what that means?

Here is algorithm that would make sense to me:

1) Starting second half of the match, unless it's playoffs/finals, if your team is reduced to become twice as less than your opponents' at some point (taking into account players sitting on reserves bench), and TD count is not in your favor, or is a draw, your are eligible for conceding under auto-resolution rules. Both sides must agree to proceed with those, otherwise the play continues as normal.
2) Conceder is designated as losing side, but keep all MVPs and winnings, unlike regular conceder.
3) For each of concerder's players still on the pitch his opponent makes an armor roll; he may add effects of PO, MB and Claw in any combinations to any of those rolls, but only once per this resolution turn. Then he runs one more armor roll for any player of his choice as if he was making a foul with 2-3 assists, using DP if one of his players have it. Any injury roll he gets starting from KO and above removes the player in question from further steps. Conceding side may use Apo if they have one to reroll CAS (but not KO). For each CAS 2 SPPs are delivered to a winner's random player the same way as MVP is assigned (select 3 players, roll a D6 to chose one)
4) Repeat step 3) for each remaining turn, or until there are no more non-CAS/KO players left on conceder's team; each 2nd or 3rd turn of resolution conceder does a single armor roll against one of the opposing players as well
5) For each 3-4 turns you have remaining till the end of the match, winner gets +1 TD, and 3 SPPs are delivered to his random player. In case if conceding happened when TD count was still at draw, winner always gets +1 TD, regardless of amount of turns left to the end of match.

That all bears even more sense in digital BB, as there it will be calculated in seconds, without any efforts.

You also seem to be under impression you are hurting me with your assumptions. Unless you really like writing lengthy posts you should just stop, because it misses completely. You probably have more funnier things to do with your time. At best it amuses me a bit (as I tended to write those kind of posts long ago as well) ;) ) Of us 2 you seem more like a person for who pixels (or, say, numbers in match's outcome) mean more than it should, like, you may be just projecting your feeelings upon me or something. Have you considered this possibility? ;)

dode74 wrote:
Mori-mori - it appears to me that you want to quit just because things are getting hard. Well, don't. Use some grit and make the fight fun. You claim "it's not a game" any more but it absolutely is: you always have a chance to get away with crazy stuff, and the key is to try. If it works then it's wonderful, and if it doesn't you go down in a blaze of glory. It's only meaningless when *you* make it meaningless.

I hear you. And finding some crazy exits is what I would try previously when I was newer to the game. But with experience and understanding of mechanics, and learning what chances of that or that are, it just got old. Yes, if you are extremely lucky, you can. No, it's not real decision making, as in described situations 95% of the time you're just rolling dices and fail. It's just a waste of your time (even in cases when I find myself on the other side of this lot, as just clearing the pitch without any real challenge is plain boring to me)

Well, in the rest 5% of those cases you may actually inflict CAS or even 2, push away his guys and free a couple of yours - only to find out you are still outnumbered and surrounded and next turn status-quo is restored. I can't believe you haven't found yourself in situations like this quite a few times over those years. They will be even more common for more inexperienced players. Not sure whether you deny they exist, or the fact that your chances to do something meaningful in those are extremely slim? So, 95% of the time, when you find yourself in those, you're just standing up your players and roll dices with little to zero effect. I fail to see a play and strategy here.

Moreover, I've already described a "crazy tactic" I would give a shot in such case, the one with all my team lying on the ground, reducing your options to scoring and 1 foul per turn (which I can't avoid anyway under those circumstances), may be blitzing you with one of my guys each turn. This is also very reasonable decision in competitive environment, as I'm greatly reducing amount of armor rolls I need to do, and I'm decreasing number of SPPs you can get from me. That is also a rock solid legitimate tactic, according to rulebook, it seems :) But, again, is it really that meaningful and fun for you? For me it isn't. I would prefer to concede it all under some reasonable conditions, benefiting us both, saving us both time (yea, I remember you have different opinion on whether it's a wasted time). But I just have to continue with this atrocity to not lose some winnings and MVP, or because conceding this earlier is against rules and I'll be punished.

Btw, if that start to look like useless bickering for you, guys, I suggest us to drop the subject then, as it doesn't seem like it's going anywhere this way.


Last edited by Mori-mori on Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:04 pm 
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@Mori-mori

Better not start a Goblin or Halfling team then! :wink: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:10 pm 
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Regash wrote:
@Mori-mori

Better not start a Goblin or Halfling team then! :wink: :lol:

Those are even better examples, as they find themselves in hopeless situations like described way more often.


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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:37 pm 
Legend
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Mori-mori wrote:
frogboy wrote:
So what is the ideal result of a game of Blood Bowl going to be?

Ideal result for me in the described situation would be to, say, auto-resolve the rest of the match to save some time. Good, may be I just need to come up with an example to explain what that means?


No i mean, what is your expected result of a game going into it. OK so you don't like fun, lets take it really seriously for a minute.

The game I know is a game based around the somewhat comical Old World factions, translated into a football setting. To make up for the completely biased and wholly unequal sides/races they wrote a bunch of backgrounds loosely inline with what the fantasy equivalents where back when. The games name is Blood Bowl, everywhere in the background writing and in the rules are reasons why this game is meant to be brutal.

Why are you playing such a game if you get (trying hard for a word here) upset when your team gets beaten up? It doesn't make much sense to me.

It doesn't mean you should stop playing, I understand that it is a tough game, instead you could (and no i am not trying to force my opinion on you) try to improve, so you don't get beaten so badly. Try a different race, play for fun and don't take it so serious or do what most people who regularly get beaten do and enjoy it for your opponent too. Its a game for two people and there are races for everyone, you can score or bash or run numbers until your blind.

If i enter into a game then i expect there to be casualties, i expect there to be a winner and a looser, i'm not sorry if i kill your best player and I will try to win even if i have nothing left. I don't expect someone to quit mid game because they are having a bad day, I've had plenty of them.

So here's what i think of your points;

1) What if the opponent is me or someone who refuse's your offer of conceding. You or whoever gets a bit salty and just clicks "turn" for the rest of the game without talking. No thanks
2) Giving both coaches the chance to concede and still gain MVPs etc leads to broken teams and cheating shenanigans.
3) I understand what your doing, but your team could end up in a worse position than if they just carried on. Also it gives access to skills that some teams don't even have and also will benefit more heavily armored teams than less armored teams when conceding.
4) Why not just play the game at this point?
5) Again depending on team would seem fairer to some and less so to others who can score in less or take a lot longer normally, but i can see what your trying to do, its not as broken as steps 3 and 4 though.

Good luck to Christer writing this into FUMBBL

In conclusion, i think leaving the game design to Games Workshop is the best idea, but that's not to say it wont work in a local league. Quit on me though and we are done, rabble rabble rabble rabble... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:16 pm 
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frogboy wrote:
So here's what i think of your points;

1) What if the opponent is me or someone who refuse's your offer of conceding. You or whoever gets a bit salty and just clicks "turn" for the rest of the game without talking. No thanks
2) Giving both coaches the chance to concede and still gain MVPs etc leads to broken teams and cheating shenanigans.
3) I understand what your doing, but your team could end up in a worse position than if they just carried on. Also it gives access to skills that some teams don't even have and also will benefit more heavily armored teams than less armored teams when conceding.
4) Why not just play the game at this point?
5) Again depending on team would seem fairer to some and less so to others who can score in less or take a lot longer normally, but i can see what your trying to do, its not as broken as steps 3 and 4 though.

Good, now we're talking about interesting things (I'll ignore your strange over-fixation on losing/being beaten matters for now ;) ).

1) Well, if you insist, I'm proceeding with my "brilliant" tactics of reducing gains you can get from me, as I'm expected to in a competitive environment. Each time you surround me, I'm stop getting my players up on their feet, leaving you only with options to score, or foul (which you have anyway, regardless of my actions). For me it's just a one click to "End turn", so no big deal. Unless you'll be stalling the game yourself, it will end times faster this way.
2) Cheating won't become worse with this. As you can see, the whole process just sort of generalize the usual course such play will take. One team is horribly beaten, the other scores TDs. If your intention is to farm SPPs, than you have much better opportunities, and don't need it at all. You can, say, just score TDs all the way, in turns, blitzing/blocking each other occasionally. This way you'll have much more control over who gets SPPs, so it's better for farming.
3) That's true, but isn't it better to let me to decide? I can evaluate situation on the board and see whether it worth or not to waste more of my time. In general, I would prefer not to waste it, even if I'll take heavier casualties in the end. If my opponent doesn't mind either, then why not? I didn't get the part about access to skills you don't have, but may be my phrasing was off back then. When I talked about using PO/Claw/MB, I meant, of course, you can only use those if you have them at least on one of your players.
4) Because there are situations where I'll feel close to zero incentive to do it, as it clearly appears my actions don't mean anything. It's not fun, there is no real problem to solve, and I'm feeling like I'm losing my time.
5) I agree that it won't correctly represent outcomes of confrontation of a "specific team A" against a "specific team B", but, again, in general, it's more or less okay, I believe.

So, in the end, I agree it's sub-optimal, and won't represent many cases (team/skills combinations) totally correct, but it will do ok, no worse than any other auto-resolution algorithm. If both coaches see it's pointless to continue, and agree to bear with its simplifications, then why not, again?

frogboy wrote:
In conclusion, i think leaving the game design to Games Workshop is the best idea

I bet a lot of people out there would strongly disagree it's the best idea :D And what is point in having a "New concepts" board on the forum, where you can't argue about some "what-ifs"?


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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Its like you want to play fantasy football role play or something. Get a few charts together and roll off to see who wins.

Also it sounds so bloody arrogant saying you will access the game to see if its worth any more of your time jeezz dude, put the moral hover away for a moment and remember its a game.

If you and oppenent agree then go for it, as for a new concept i think its horrible. I dont like it, concieding rules have been writen into the rules already with no benifit to the concieder, changing that to give benifit to concieding will certainly lead to abuse and encourage it wholly especially at the global online version of the game.

Lots of people agree or not on aspects of the rules GW produce, we still all play them.
Why not try it in your local league or with a bunch of friends, you could start a league on FUMBBL and write you rules into the league, try it out.

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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:00 pm 
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frogboy wrote:
If you and oppenent agree then go for it, as for a new concept i think its horrible.
This, assuming your league commish and gaming group are good with it. This is why I said this is more pertinent as a house rule rather than as a new concept.


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 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:02 pm 
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frogboy wrote:
Its like you want to play fantasy football role play or something. Get a few charts together and roll off to see who wins.

But is it better to just sit through the rest of it for another 30mins, when nothing can be changed in 95% of cases? That's again comes down to compromises.

frogboy wrote:
Also it sounds so bloody arrogant saying you will access the game to see if its worth any more of your time jeezz dude, put the moral hover away for a moment and remember its a game.

For some reason you're ignoring the part about both coaches must to agree for this to happen. That answer of mine was to your concerns that it may result in a worse outcome for my own team, and this is what I believe I may deliberately decide to accept, though.

frogboy wrote:
If you and oppenent agree then go for it.

I can't, because it's against official rules, and thus it's against policies most Leagues out there use.

frogboy wrote:
I dont like it, concieding rules have been writen into the rules already with no benifit to the concieder, changing that to give benifit to concieding will certainly lead to abuse and encourage it wholly especially at the global online version of the game.

What exactly is "benefit of conceder" here? The only benefit, both for conceder and the other coach, is that it saves them some time on a dull and already decided game. How it's different if I'll just sit through it without standing my players whenever possible, to minimize my opponents SPP gain, just hitting "End turn" all the time?

frogboy wrote:
Lots of people agree or not on aspects of the rules GW produce, we still all play them.

Yes, and you surely know that community has played a big part into forming those rules, rising issues and suggesting things/providing feedback.

frogboy wrote:
Why not try it in your local league or with a bunch of friends, you could start a league on FUMBBL and write you rules into the league, try it out.

Because I don't have friends and life, apparently :D That was rather mean to point it out, btw :(


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