Register    Login    Forum    FAQ

Board index » Blood Bowl » New Concepts




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:32 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:11 pm
Posts: 70
Under current system the only way you can legitimately concede (i.e., while not losing MVPs and gold reward) is when you are reduced to less than 3 players at some point. Isn't it a bit too harsh and devoid of any sense? Even elves will struggle hard to put up some resistance having 3-5 players on the pitch, and for more bashier teams it's just won't happen (assuming the opposition still has 9-11 players themselves). They are doomed to be used as source of SPPs for the rest of the match, without even ability to strike back, most of the time.

I've heard new players complaining about it many times. That the moment they find themselves in such situation, the game becomes unappealing to them, as they are forced to still sit through it for another 30-40mins, without being able to actually change something or get satisfaction in any other way, yet being reluctant to conceded as they will lose even that small SPP hand off at the end of the match. They are basically forced to stay there to appease the other coach while not getting much fun at all from the game. That doesn't seem like a good design approach to me.

Is it possible to establish a more reasonable conceding conditions, which would allow to end legitimately a clearly already settled match much earlier in the game? Something along way "starting the 2nd half of the game, if number of players you can field twice or more less than your opponent's.." etc, may be also taking into account quality of those players (their total price, including level ups) and type (agile/bash/hybrid) or tier of the team. Is it worth it, and what possible negative consequences it may result in?


Last edited by Mori-mori on Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:02 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:20 pm
Posts: 1883
Location: South Wales
What about the fans!!?

They paid good money to watch the whole game!

Conceding is a bit like cheating, cheating your opponent out of the SPPs they have played hard at to get.

Good games come and go, imagine someone decieded to quit on you when everything finally clicks into place and your playing like a boss.

Fight like a cornered rat till the bitter end, and if your team has nothing left at the end all reduced to kebab meat, then do what every decent coach does, forget about them gits and get another team.

_________________
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:41 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:11 pm
Posts: 70
frogboy wrote:
What about the fans!!?
They paid good money to watch the whole game!

Well, they mostly will see it, if we only allow conceding under the new terms starting the 2nd half.

frogboy wrote:
Conceding is a bit like cheating, cheating your opponent out of the SPPs they have played hard at to get.

Life is made out of compromises. It's not only about your opponents profits, but about yours as well. If you don't see much fun and profit in fighting his 10 players with your 5 remaining human linemen (basically, that means just be pummeled and finding yourself always throwing 2-3 dice blocks against, or tripping all over while trying to get out from tackle zone to lend an assists etc - usual outcomes of being outnumbered heavily), then odds are he may one day struggle to find an opponent at all, as somebody went off of their patience and stopped playing. Generally situations when one player is basically done, yet is forced to sit through the rest of the lengthy game to be easy pray for others are considered signs of bad game design, they really are.

Moreover, nothing actually prevents him from conceding anyway. Like, you can't chain him to your table, he can just forget about SPPs and concede. That just gives the whole game a bit more unjustified bitterness.

frogboy wrote:
Good games come and go, imagine someone decieded to quit on you when everything finally clicks into place and your playing like a boss.

Not a big deal for me, if his team has been reduced to 4-5 players, while I'm still fielding 10-11 (and the opposition are not elves), as at this point it's not playing like a boss, but just kicking some toddlers. Yea, they may still cause me a CAS or two, if they are lucky, I probably will cause them at least that much as well, more likely more (as I'm now in position where I can easily sacrifice players and foul them freely). That's not fun even for me as a winner, as there is no real challenge anymore.

frogboy wrote:
Fight like a cornered rat till the bitter end, and if your team has nothing left at the end all reduced to kebab meat, then do what every decent coach does, forget about them gits and get another team.

That only works if you really can fight. And most of the time, if you are not elves, and you are outnumbered by twice, you'll just find yourself incapable of doing anything, if your opponent knows his part.


Last edited by Mori-mori on Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:08 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2453
Location: Near Reading, UK
Mori-mori wrote:
Is it possible to establish a more reasonable conceding conditions

Certainly:
You may never, under any circumstances, concede. If you do your entire team will quit in disgust.

"Reasonable" is subjective. What you mean is "easier".


Last edited by dode74 on Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:17 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:11 pm
Posts: 70
@dode74

You probably meant "concede" :) But, still

dode74 wrote:
"Reasonable" is subjective. What you mean is "easier".


Well, no. I still insist there is a reasonable part to this, specifically this one:

Quote:
Generally situations when one player is basically done, yet is forced to sit through the rest of the lengthy game to be easy pray for others are considered signs of bad game design, they really are.


Game should be fun to both parties, even if one party is losing. If one player finds himselves in a situation where he can't even put a semblance of fight, and just need to stand up his players constantly and throw 2-3 dice blocks against, it's not really a game anymore, and certainly not fun.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:22 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2453
Location: Near Reading, UK
Haha, I did. Edited for clarity.

The problem is that people quit at the drop of a hat. Most people aren't good enough to see when they still have a chance to win and will assume it's all over. There's reams of data to support that. Make it easier to quit and they will quit more often. If I've put in the effort to travel to a games night I can reasonably expect to play a full game, and that means 16 turns.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:31 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:11 pm
Posts: 70
dode74 wrote:
Haha, I did. Edited for clarity.

The problem is that people quit at the drop of a hat. Most people aren't good enough to see when they still have a chance to win and will assume it's all over. There's reams of data to support that. Make it easier to quit and they will quit more often. If I've put in the effort to travel to a games night I can reasonably expect to play a full game, and that means 16 turns.


There should be some good criteria which provide a more or less clear demarcation line between those... Can 5 dwarves really put up a fight against 10 dwarves, or 10 orcs? Will it really be fun for you just routinely butchering them the last 8 turns (for your opponent it won't be, almost for sure, but will it be for you, at least)? We may be talking about edge cases here (like, dwarves losing half of their team in the first half of the game), but those have potential to spoil the general great vibe of the game.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:37 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2453
Location: Near Reading, UK
Clear criteria are there already: 3 on the LOS.

Problems arise when you start trying to account for every situation. I think this is more a "house rule" situation than a new concepts one: if your own league wants to run an rules which make it easier to concede then nobody will argue with that, but I think any argument which raises the baseline level for "acceptable" in terms of concession potentially leads to serious issues.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:39 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:20 pm
Posts: 1883
Location: South Wales
I've pitch cleared a couple of oppenents now, and i loved it. The crunch of their groin by a well worn boot as it stamps down or the squeal of catcher as he's finally caught and rounded up.

More guts, more glory.

_________________
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:20 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:11 pm
Posts: 70
I can understand your position, @dode74, as a TT player (you mentioned traveling somewhere to play). Still, it's a bit different for digital BB. You can find another game relatively quick on fumbbl or cyanide, most of the time. And to clarify things: I'm not advocating for those who concede after spending an Apo, or just because they feel they can't win. I won't concede if it's 2nd half, and I'm loosing 3:0, or if I'm elves and I'm left with 5 players - because I still can play in those cases. My main source of fun in BB is from solving interesting problems on the board, not simply winning games, or destroying opponents, those are supplemental things. So, if at some point I'm finding myself in the described dead end situation (I'm not playing some elves, and they outnumber me by twice, and I'm surrounded by tackle zones to such extent I can't maneuver anymore and can throw a single decent block etc), I'll concede almost for sure anyway, without feeling much remorse. As there is no game at this point, like, no actual decision making or strategy, you just stand up you players each turn and roll dices, hoping you'll get extremely lucky. I won't blame my opponent if he'll do the same in the described scenario, either. There is no point in continuing this, and time is precious. Both of us can find a more interesting game right away. Or go watch a movie, that's still better.

It's not about being overly concerned about my pixels or something, I just don't see any reason in wasting 30+ mins doing this. I don't mind even if such conceding would result in some injury rolls for each of my remaining players (sort of auto-resolving mechanics), with any CAS giving SPPs to the opposition - just don't want to waste my time needlessly. Still, getting the MVP + some money in the end would be nice for a losing side, no need to punish them even more like that.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:28 pm 
Da Spammer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:04 pm
Posts: 23632
Location: Fundamentaling for the BB Illuminati
And what about the person on the other end, who might not have time to start another game?

I still think they should put in the 51spp rule for anyone that concedes (other than the less than 3) or discos - sure, it will hurt those with the random internet drop (*waves*) but will also hurt those that disco/concede for poor reasons.

_________________
SWTC 2017 Stunty Cup winner - never again (until next time!)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:36 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2453
Location: Near Reading, UK
I play more online than I do TT simply because it's easier to get a game. And while finding another game might be relatively easy, what's not so easy is setting the time aside to play a game. If I've I've managed to set aside 2hrs from the rest of my life to enjoy my hobby and you bugger off after an hour and 10 turns then I'm simply not going to get a full match played. You've wasted my time in that circumstance.

Thing is with online: there are plenty of places you can concede without being punished in any way for it. COL has no concession limit, for example. If you want to be able to concede in online play then play there. Why do you need to change the rules when you can already get what you want?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:49 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:11 pm
Posts: 70
Darkson wrote:
And what about the person on the other end, who might not have time to start another game?

I may be that very person next time, and still I'm ready to accept it, that's much better than imitating some activity just for the sake of it, like in described scenario. I understand how it feels, and I don't want my opponent to feel like this.

Darkson wrote:
I still think they should put in the 51spp rule for anyone that concedes (other than the less than 3) or discos - sure, it will hurt those with the random internet drop (*waves*) but will also hurt those that disco/concede for poor reasons.

Well, then next time when I'll find myself in said hopeless situation I'll just stop to stand up my players at all, at some point :) You can foul them to your soul's content (yet still once per turn, better than a torrent of blocks you'll get when you are surrounded and outnumbered), clicking "End turn" button is still easier for me than standing them up without any real reason. You won't get any SPPs from that, I won't get any fun, but the match will end much sooner and totally according to the rules. But will it be that much fun for us? :)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:04 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:11 pm
Posts: 70
dode74 wrote:
If I've I've managed to set aside 2hrs from the rest of my life to enjoy my hobby and you bugger off after an hour and 10 turns then I'm simply not going to get a full match played. You've wasted my time in that circumstance.

I can't see how it's wasted, tbh. You supposedly played an excellent game, totally destroying my team to such extent there is nothing I can do. You already won, and the rest of actions in the match neither bear any meaning, nor present any challenge to you, or me. Does the fact that it took an hour instead of 2 hours mean that much? I would say it's a good thing, you are free to spend that hour for something else, being content of your excellently played game
dode74 wrote:
Thing is with online: there are plenty of places you can concede without being punished in any way for it. COL has no concession limit, for example. If you want to be able to concede in online play then play there. Why do you need to change the rules when you can already get what you want?

COL is on the other, extreme side of the scale, where people concede just because they feel slightly unlucky. Do we really need to only go for extremes? How about some reasonable middle-ground?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: More reasonable conceding conditions
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:17 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2453
Location: Near Reading, UK
Mori-mori wrote:
I can't see how it's wasted, tbh.
There lies the issue. I play in order to play a game. Winning the match is secondary. I've been on the receiving end of near pitch clears and found fun in preventing them from being pitch clears, and I've dished them out where the challenge has become making them pitch clears (instead of merely winning).
Quote:
Does the fact that it took an hour instead of 2 hours mean that much? I would say it's a good thing, you are free to spend that hour for something else, being content of your excellently played game
I don't want to do something else. I put the 2hrs aside to play BB and now because you're a bit bored I can't do that?
When you start a game of BB you are agreeing to play a game in accordance with a set of rules with an opponent. If you arbitrarily decide your Dwarves are all MA8 then your opponent will rightly be annoyed; if you arbitrarily decide you're ending the match early then your opponent will rightly be annoyed.
Quote:
COL is on the other, extreme side of the scale, where people concede just because they feel slightly unlucky. Do we really need to only go for extremes? How about some reasonable middle-ground?
I didn't say you had to concede, I said you could. You don't have to just because you can. Nor will you stop people from doing so. And you can concede in CCL too, just not as much as you seem to want to. You want a middle ground then you go make a league and implement it: like I said, house rules.


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Board index » Blood Bowl » New Concepts


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron