Toby's Concepts Explained Part 1.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue May 06, 2003 5:30 pm

yes i like what you have done, sorry if that wasn't clear, but i don't think the rulebook is getting changed any time soon :/

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue May 06, 2003 10:41 pm

To be honest, and no disrespect Toby, I can't really see that much difference. I agree the LRB needs re-organising, but for all the posts and agruements there's been about this lately (not just by you) I don't think it's been worth it.

Sorry

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed May 07, 2003 12:40 am

i can't even bring myself to read that first post you made...it's looks too long and confusing. i don't even want to think about how insanely much time/work went in to creating it.

i don't get what you're trying to do, and i don't see why it matters. for one i don't like secret weapons at all, and a lot of what you're saying seems bound into that...technical changes about the way stuff is listed and whatever.

i get tired just trying to read it. i think i'll just stick with bb the way it is thanks. if there's some flaw in the team listings and roster stuff as is i don't see it.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed May 07, 2003 1:13 am

boah man this is about integrating what player is allowed to buy what secret weapon and what secret weapon is allowed on what team according to the new SW rules.

It also allows to list all avialiable players without browsing the damn LRB. Im getting tired as well. Have you teached your girlfriend Blood Bowl yet ?Yor get Questions like "why is it I must click "start" to turn of my computer".

I was assuming this board is an expert place for Blood Bowl. It turns out to be a close society with no interest to make the game comprehendable or availiable to new people who didn't even know what the word "tabletop" actually means.

Actually what I did is just Brilliant. It would be an excellent starting point to reorganise all sthe team building related stuff. Starting with CREATING A BLOOD BOWL TEAM. Page 1.

Frist thing, choose a team list. Then the reader gets explained the data, so he gets some idea what hes writing in that team roster.

I quit.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed May 07, 2003 1:39 am

Toby wrote:boah man this is about integrating what player is allowed to buy what secret weapon and what secret weapon is allowed on what team according to the new SW rules.

Those aren't official right? just experimental right? i hope? i don't like sw's and don't want them in my league.

Toby wrote:It also allows to list all avialiable players without browsing the damn LRB. Im getting tired as well. Have you teached your girlfriend Blood Bowl yet ?Yor get Questions like "why is it I must click "start" to turn of my computer".

I think the lrb already has lists of available players right? Those rosters and all at the end?

Toby wrote:I was assuming this board is an expert place for Blood Bowl. It turns out to be a close society with no interest to make the game comprehendable or availiable to new people who didn't even know what the word "tabletop" actually means.

Well there's no reason to be that way about it. just because not too many ppl see things your way doesn't mean we're closed-minded. you just seem like a different type of person than me. you're the accountant type...everything has to be perfectly organized, compartmentalized, labeled, shelved, documented, etc etc etc. i don't care as long as it works.

as far as my girlfriend, yes i've taught one or two how to play bb...one even bought and painted up a purple wood elf team. but the current (and final one, she's my wife) isn't really interested...she roleplays, but doesn't get into the minis games. but the ones i did teach didn't have any trouble picking it up...but then this was all before LRB, so who knows now.

same basic rules system tho, i doubt it would be that much different. it's not like any of them read the rulebooks anyway, they just learned from me.

Toby wrote:Actually what I did is just Brilliant.

Hehehe really?....apparently modesty isn't a big thing where you come from.

Toby wrote:It would be an excellent starting point to reorganise all sthe team building related stuff. Starting with CREATING A BLOOD BOWL TEAM. Page 1.

Frist thing, choose a team list. Then the reader gets explained the data, so he gets some idea what hes writing in that team roster.

I quit.

to be honest i've been playing bb for years and it confused the hell out of me...changing "racial characteristic" to "special". what the hell does that mean?

i'm not sure how that helps anything/anybody.

i'm not trying to annoy you, just trying to figure out the point. you say you're trying to simplify...i just don't see it.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed May 07, 2003 1:44 am

care to look at the starplayer cards ?

they list specials. same thing is refered to on another location as RC. next time its a skill. next page, its a TRAIT. im talking about throw teammate.

And those are the official SW rules.

is your email valid ? i want to email you the file. im about to commit suicide you know.

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Wed May 07, 2003 3:29 am

There are no official SW rules. Some Stars come with them if that's what you mean, but beyond that there is no "official" way to give them to normal players. Neoliminal has written good experimanetal rules for BBMag though.

Dragoonkin · Post by **Dragoonkin** » Wed May 07, 2003 4:06 am

I've said about a million times in the #FUMBBL channel that the LRB needs to be stripped to nothing and rewritten over again. Just that it'll never get done. I've been tempted to do it myself when I take a vacation from work, just so I can say it's there if someone wants it, but the problem with that is, my wording would be useless in any official capacity. And would make it sort of irrelevant unless you had a copy of the LRB in addition to the rewrite to look up the "real" wording.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed May 07, 2003 4:59 am

50-56 Team Lists
25-26 Big Guys
34-37 Skills, Traits, Specials & Racial Characteristics

This is what I have in the works.

If someone yould want to join in and make it a Team Effort, I would be more than happy. As I focus on "off Pitch", it would be more than cool to see someone start the "on Pitch" part where it comes to actually playing the game of Blood Bowl.

Hey Dragonkin what about writing a complete "Blocking" rules section ?
Assists, related Skills, you name it.

grep-v · Post by **grep-v** » Wed May 07, 2003 10:44 am

Dragoonkin wrote:I've said about a million times in the #FUMBBL channel that the LRB needs to be stripped to nothing and rewritten over again.

Same goes for me. Another problem we had in our league with LRB was the following:
we choose to play with LRB x, everyone is happy. GW announces LRB x+1, 50% of the players disagree with the changes. Should we stick with the old version, use the new one, write some house rules to cope with the changes?
(the upcoming change of the Undead is a good example)
My choice (as mentioned before) was a complete rewrite. Drop the LRB, rewrite it yourself (call me a heretic

). Hell of a work, but pays off, if you have a stable league.

Dragoonkin wrote:...but the problem with that is, my wording would be useless in any official capacity. And would make it sort of irrelevant unless you had a copy of the LRB in addition to the rewrite to look up the "real" wording.

That only *seems* to be a real problem. If you want to play on tournaments you have to use LRB. But that's no problem. Just play some LRB games every month, that's enough. OK, you forget some rules but there's still an opponent who might remember and if he also doesn't, well then obviously both of you agree with that "new rule" and the game is still fun.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Wed May 07, 2003 11:41 am

OK, you forget some rules but there's still an opponent who might remember and if he also doesn't, well then obviously both of you agree with that "new rule" and the game is still fun.

Cheater! Illigal, illigal!

but the biggest fun was your opponent using 12 players and you not noticing it until afterwards.

trip to A'dam: more than 150€
money to take part in the tourney: 15€
your face after you realized: priceless

for everything else there is the NAF member card...enjoy!

But to be honest: 12 players are actually 'highly illigal'!

Back to the topic:

The basic problem about the LRB seems to be that parts which should belong together are mentioned on different pages and under different headings. Thus by 'rewriting' the LRB one should add a proper index and maybe a reference at the side of every page where to also look for this or that rule (damn lawyers

). Then you wouldn't need to repeat that much text (and GW is concerned about every single page

). Oh, and of course maybe put rules together into one section when they are connected to each other. And remove any inconsistencies.

Now Toby, rewirting the LRB seems like a good idea, but it is more the presentation thereof or some wording causing the most misunderstandings (like rules quoters only quoting half a sentense or so). However, I got the impression that you also wanted to start a revolution on many rules as well and most board members are posting here that they basically like the RULES as they are.

With all respect, since you do not seem to play a lot and you are not aware of some possible abuses (SPP for ttm), balance problems (big guys without neg. skills but with block) or philosophies of certain rules (shall we all call it like that?), your rule change proposals upset so many here and don't get the approval you hope they get.

But since I look over grep-v's shoulder from time to time

I know how hard it is to write proper rules.

Sputnik

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed May 07, 2003 12:54 pm

MY mistake is that while workin so intensely inside the MAtter, I often drifted by allowing to let my self experiment with "would not it be cool if it were like this or that".

Then if you look at the new team lists, there are some things that HAVE to be reorganised to fit into the system. For example its really necessars to split Stunty ability and handicap.

You then stumble into things like +1 Injury and think, "heck is this really needed, these guys suck anyway".

Next issue is my "Starplayer System". With those team lists you can list multiple players for the same position. That way you can list 3 diffrent Big Guys for the "Blocker Slot" or 2 diffrent Human Catchers.

I know you do not understand the benefit of a new permanent starplayer system. I try to say it in 2 lines: In Tournament Play, where the new Stars are freebooted only, it prevents a team from fielding a player that has abilities that are inacessible for that team in any other way. In league play, where Stars are permanent, it enables coaches a shortcut to certain skills, but comes at the expense of: developement control, team rating, and money.

Note, that the Starplayer System is almost completely optional. The only requirement for the new team lists to work 100% is the removal of all old Secret Weapon and Big Guy Starplayers, because they allow players on teams that do not fit the Race & Racial Characteristics system, and disturb the Secret Weapons system and enable Teams TTM that are not supposed to.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed May 07, 2003 1:23 pm

was your comment about splitting stuny discussed on another thread and it doesn't need splitting, you just make things more complicated that way

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed May 07, 2003 1:34 pm

Just believe me it is. How about asking me to email you the complete excel file, so you get to see the whole picture.

Stunty is a SPECIAL, it gets DISABLED as soon as a SECRET WEAPON is purchased for the player. SHORT ARMS and LITTLE FELLOW are RACIAL CHARACTERISTICS that always apply to a player of the RACES GOBLIN, HALFLING or SKINK.

Its the exact opposite of complicated.
Its exactliy defined what a Skill is, what a Trait is and how you can get them.
Its also defined what a RC is and when it applys: ALWAYS.
Specials however only apply under certain circumstances for example you need RS for TTM, so if theres no RS player on the Team, TTM is not listed.

It rids the Team Lists from unnecessary information. I stop telling you. Look at my file for yourself.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed May 07, 2003 1:42 pm

won't do me no good i don't have excel