Brettonians and Kislev

[tommy316]

Okay, sorry to bring it here, but the BBC board and the BB Mailing List have had some good discussions on both concepts. I only bring it up here because of all the boards, this is one of the FRIENDLIEST and most productive boards.

Here's what I've "LIFTED" from the mailing list for KISLEV:

Kislev has always played a key role in the defense against chaos - if Kislev
falls, so will all of the old world. This has affected Kislevite mentality
in such a way that the Kislevites much prefer "not losing" over "winning at
all cost".

This world view has also affected kislevite Blood Bowl, and this makes the
kislevite team a hyper-defensive team.

*The Kislev Team*
0-12 Linemen 5 3 3 8 sidestep - G, 50K/60K
0-4 Cossack Blockers 5 3 3 9 block, tackle - G, ST, 90K
0-4 Wings 6 3 3 8 catch, Pblock - G, AG, 90K
0-2 Kicker 6 3 3 8 kick, HMP - G, 70K
**0-1 Pet Bear 5 4 1 7 Thick Skull, Claws, Wild Animal 60k
ReRolls 50K, No Big Guy, Normal Apoth & Wizard
(If using the new optional kicking rules, then the kickers can also get
KI
skills, and cost 80K).

** I added the bear, although the idea was kicked around plenty. I don't think the Bear should be able to gain SPP's like a normal player. Maybe once he gains 15 or 20 SPP's he'll lose Wild Animal or maybe gain some special skills; 6 SPP's gains *Bear Hug*, 11 SPP's gains *Razor Sharp Claws*, then 26 SPP's he loses *Wild Animal* and that's when the Bear peaks. Bear Hug would be something like Tentacles.

Here's some of what I've seen or think would be good for the Brett's:
*The Brettonian Team*
0-12 Peasant Linemen 6 2 3 6 - G (40k)
0-2 Squire Catcher 6 3 3 7 Catch - G, A (70k)
0-2 Herald Thrower 6 3 3 7 Pass - G, P (70k)
0-4 Knights of the Realm 6 3 3 9 Block, Stand Firm - G, ST (90k)

A LORD is the team's coach and the Knights serve him.

OKAY, BEFORE I GET RIPPED ON PRICES AND WHAT NOT- THIS IS A VERY ROUGH DRAFT
I'm looking for the great minds of this board to help round out both ideas.

Let's here what ya got!!!!!

[Thadrin]

I hate the idea of giving linemen Sidestep on the Kislev team...that is a seriously powerful skill when used right. How about Tackle instead? Makes the Cossacks more along the lines of being the team's blitzers rather than Blockers.
The wings are a nice idea though. Make the Bear a werebear instead?
(the Beorn the Bearstruck WFB Dogs of War model!)

The Brettonian team is going to get the living **** kicked out of it though. Those Peasants will not last long at all with only ST2 AV6 and no stunty or dodge like a Halfling or Goblin. I'd prefer 6/3/2/7 for 40K.

Just ideas. I'm not really in favour of splitting.

[Norse]

Difficult to argue this one.

What you are discussing is different tactics with human teams more than different races. I suppose GW got the ball rolling with Amazons and Norse (neither of which I like incidentally!!) and now there's a desire for more variation.

I would rather see a standard human team and people then adapt how they use the team to suit their regional ideals. What I mean is, you want a Bretonnian team?

Then use humans, don't foul, try to build up a team based around knights (Stand Firm, Mighty Blow etc) and stay away from dodge, side-step or other cowardly skills etc etc. Don't take catchers as their armour is too low blah blah

You want a Kislev team, then use humans, lots of lightly armoured linemen, give them more evasive skills and 'skillful' things like strip ball etc etc

If what you're looking for is racial diversity between humans, what you really need is racial training packages. What annoys me about the Norse and Amazons is that there is no real similarity to the basic human team. How can an Amazon catcher be stronger than a human one??

The way I would handle this would be to produce a range of human templates, so that all humans share the same basic stat line, and then you 'choose' a path for your team to follow, so all Norse get block but lose an AV, all Amazons get Dodge but lose an AV, all Kislevites get skill x but lose an AV, all Brettonians get skill y but lose z etc etc

What this would reflect is that all men are created equal, but upbringing and training affect how you behave (not ALL Brazilians are good at football, not ALL Swiss can ski, but regional preferences do count for much!)

Galak, you are the best guy to maybe help me here, but if we were to make Norse and Amazons match the basic human template, how could we give them the right skills and still keep the costs realistic and the game balanced?? I really hate that Amazon catchers are stronger than human ones....

[voyagers_uk]

circumstance over genetics eh? interesting..... shades of "Trading Places" ahhhhhh Jamie Lee Curtis...........

I like the thinking and this would also tend to influence the pricing, but I would worry that this would mean attempting role playing during a bloodbowl game (not a bad thing in and of itself), maybe not suited to all tastes

Norse, you are surprised at the ST increase in the women?!? but surely with your wife this would be nothing new to you...........

[Norse]

B stard!

I strongly believe that circumstances have a significant effect on outcome. Bretonnians are not racially different to Empire dudes, but they have different interests, values and concepts, which results in different skills, but should not result in different stats...

Just one guys opinion

PS I personally like strong women, just not on the BB field. I have to go now, Miss Whiplash demands my attention

[Trambi]

I totally agree.
It's like introduce a team for bright crusaders, when all the differences are in behavior and not in stats.

[Deathwing]

Aren't Empire variations already in the pipeline? I think they are.
And unless there's different official rules, we ain't gonna get new BB figs to go with them!

And as far as Norse/Amazon catchers v. Human goes, the fluff is fine IMO.
Norse and Amazon are warrior races, and aren't in theory likely to have weaker players on the field. Humans are far more likely to put out weedier faster guys. Amazon v. Human catchers for example, you're giving up 2MA for 1 ST. I think of it as humans fielding out and out recievers, whereas Norse/Amazons employ more of a pass recieving tight end type.

[Marcus]

Some thoughts:

Kislev: That kislev team is phenomenally powerful. You've basically got a slightly slower human team with all the best defensive skills as standard. Any decent coach could take that team and rarely, if ever lose.

Brettonians: Not overly fond of that list. the OLBBL http://www.olbbl.com have used the same brettonian team for years and it's both well balanced and has some good flavour. Only problem is it's 3rd ed and the catchers come with NoS standard.

In General: I can't say I'm hugely keen on adding these teams at all. I agree with the idea that you're best to develop the teams from a basic template to a certain theme. When you try to add flavour to a team by giving them a heap of skills you invariably end up with monster teams where every player has the whole gamut of useful skills to start with and then adds all the other funky skills they could possibly want.

Better to give players one skill that is rarely used and let them add the useful skills on top of that. It keeps the flavour of the team but ensures you don't end up with utter monsters.

Rough example based on the posted Kislev list:

0-12 Lineserfs 5 3 3 8 - G, 40K
0-4 Cossack Blockers 6 3 3 9 tackle, passblock - G, ST, 90K
0-4 Wings 6 3 3 8 diving catch - G, AG, 80K
0-2 Kicker 5 3 3 8 kick, HMP - G, 60K

That is, of course, very rough; but it serves to illustrate how you could add flavour to the team without overpowering them too far. Lack of block would be a problem for this team, forcing them to start with more desperate tactics early on. The team has a powerful defensive set out of the box with both kick and passblock allowing them to put pressure on the opposition off the kickoff but, without speed and ball handling they would have trouble consolidating. This team could still be developed a number of ways but would still retain its original flavour.

By the way: new rules or not, if GW released Kislev miniatures to be used as a standard human team I'd purchase them no worries (you listening GW?).

Marcus

[GalakStarscraper]

Just as a footnote to this, the MBBL2 has rules for Kislev team. I've played with them in pratice games and they follow the Norse/Amazon model of humans with a skill ... in this case the entire team has Jump Up to show their tenacity (sp?). Basically, I like this team a lot and its been fun playing with it so far.

MBBL2 Kislev:

# Position Cost MA ST AG AV Skills Traits Skills Available
0-12 -- Kulack -- 50,000 -- 6 3 3 7 -- Jump Up -- General
0-2 -- Tartar -- 60,000 -- 6 3 3 7 -- Pass, Jump Up -- General, Passing
0-2 -- Janistar -- 80,000 -- 7 3 3 7 -- Catch, Jump Up -- General, Agility
0-2 -- Kossack -- 90,000 -- 6 3 3 8 -- Block, Dauntless, Jump Up -- General, Strength
0-4 -- Kislev Werebear -- 100,000 -- 6 3 3 7 (4 5 2 8) -- Jump Up, Dugout Change (Jump Up, Bear Hug, Outrage) -- General, Strength, Special

Rerolls: 60,000

Big Guys: The Kislev team may not have any Big Guy players.

New skills:
Bear Hug: Instead of making a block, a player with Bear Hug can choose to crush his opponent within his powerful arms. Both coaches should roll a D6 and add their player's strength (counting assists). If the attacking player rolls higher than his opponent, make an armour and injury roll for the defending player as normal (no modifiers allowed to these rolls). If the Bear Hug player fails to break the armour of the opponent, nothing happens. If the armour roll is successful and a Stunned result is rolled for the injury, the opponent is placed stunned in the square they were in (ie no push back). If the defending player is removed from the field due to injury, the attacking player may not follow-up. Bear Hugs may not be used if the player has moved (ie not as part of blitz action).
PBeM rule change: Instead of both coaches rolling a D6, the coach with Bear Hug will succeed with using this skill if he rolls equal to or greater than (4 + opposing player's Strength stat + # of defensive assists - Bear Hug player's Strength stat - # of offensive assists).

New traits:
Outrage: Outrage works exactly the same as Frenzy EXCEPT if this player is activated and begins his action standing (ie not prone) next to an opponent then he MUST block or blitz that opponent.

Dugout Change: Before each setting up for each kick-off, roll a D6 for this player. On a 5 or 6, he must take the field in his Were form with those stats and skills .. ie the ones in (). On a 1-4, he will be human for this drive. At the end of each drive/half, this player returns to Human stats/skills. PBeM note: the program automatically handles these rolls for you along with the stat changes.

Advance:
On doubles, a Werebear can:
1) gain Razor Sharp Claws (only available in were form)
2) gain Regeneration (usable in both human and were forms)
Any other skills learned from star player rolls are available in both human and Werebear form.

[Longshot]

i dont like the idea of a lot of Human teams.
there is alraedy, Chaos, Norska, Human,Amazone.

If we do it for Human, we will have to do it for all races, more and more.
anyway, for each new team concept, it would have been tryed a lot to see if it brings something new and usefull for the game i guess.

[Anthony_TBBF]

Personally I think we have enough teams as it is, I'd rather just see alternate minis for standard team lists. Bretonnians and Kislevites would be wicked and I would buy teams if they were available but I would only use the human team list (just as I have done with Phil's Divine Wind minis). If people want to use house rule lists that is more than cool with me!

BTW I'm with Marcus, that Kislev team is nuts having all those dudes with Side Step. Yikes! Sounds like a nightmare to play against.

[Thadrin]

You want a balanced Brettonian team? I've got the perfect solution for you:

0-12 Squires 5/3/3/9 Gen. 50k
0-4 Men at Arms 6/3/3/9 Block Gen.+Str. 80k
0-2 Archers 5/3/3/8 Sure Hands, Pass Gen.+Pass. 70k
0-4 Knights 4/4/2/9 Gen.+Str. 80k
Rerolls 60k.

Look familiar? it should. Thats the Orc roster with new names for the flavour.
You want a variant team then use existing rules with different minis. I have a hard time believing that GW could object to someone turning up to a tourney with a bunch of converted Brets saying he wanted to use them, using Orc team rules. I imagine the BBRC and anyone from Fanatic would happily give anyone who did a well-deserved slap and remind them that its all for fun.

For the record, thats the roster I'd choose for the Divine Wind minis too.
That's just me though.

[TiMuN]

Agree with Anthony in the fat that we already have enough different team concepts, but there is this feeling of a lack of new minis for old standard teams. Like they did from 2nd to 3rd editions, the guys at GW could be thinking on releasing a new line of figures for BB2K1 (most official 4th edition) bloodbowl teams ..

And give some damn new flavor to Hobbos and Chaos Dwarves!

Norse, Amazons, Kislev and all the different human variants are just ways to mix different skills into a bunch of players .. but it is the very same race.

regards

[Marcus]

Thadrin: love your Brettonian team. Most sensible thing I've seen yet.

I'm rallying behind this new minis for old teams thing. They did it with the human team and I see no reason why they can't do it with the existing teams. Celebration of the rerelease of the boxed set or something.

The problem with adding new rules all the time is that it's a job of spinning plates to make sure everything is balanced. I find the current ruleset the most balanced yet, add new teams and you're bound to add imbalances.

Add new minis on the other hand and you've got a whole raft of good possibilities without the added burden of weighing down the ruleset.

Let's look at the possibilities here:

* New "theming" possibilities: Apart from Bretts and Kislev, you could also have Slaanesh, Tzeench or Nurgle themed Chaos Armies; Skaven Clans; Night goblins, Savage Orcs etc.

* Existing fans would have new styled teams to field or the possibility to mix and match old teams so that every player on the pitch is a unique model.

* Given a box of figs takes up little shelfspace it would add more shop-floor appeal to the average punter browsing a GW store and may encourage purchase of the re-released boxed set.

It may also encourage some house rules for the new minis which would lead to, heaven forbid, some solid playtesting throughout the entire community before formalising any rules.

Marcus

[McDeth]

Not keen on generating an endless human variant, but different themed miniatures definitely Yes. That would be a dream come true.