Orc Team for a 1.2m Non-Progression Resurrection Tournament

[Olaf the Stout]

I am going to be playing an Orc team in a selection league (to see who gets a place in a State vs. State tournament). Normally I would post this in the league forum, but since the league set-up is actually more like a tournament (non-progression and resurrection) I figured it was better to post it here.

The league will be 18 games played over 18 months. The league is split into 3 x 6 game blocks with each 6 game block using slightly different rule sets for selecting team line-ups. Here are the rules for the first 6 games of the selection league:

Non-Progression Ressurection (so more like a tournament than a league)
LRB5 rules
1.2 million gold to spend on Players, Star Players & Inducements
Team must have at least 11 players
Up to 1 star player allowed (can't be given a skill)
4 players may be given 1 free normal skill each
No wizards or cards - all other inducements allowed

On top of this we are allowed to move around one of the free normal skills in between each game. For example, I could remove Frenzy from an Orc Blitzer and give him Strip Ball instead. Or I could remove Frenzy from the Orc Blitzer and give a Black Orc Blocker Block. So there is a little bit of an option to modify your team between games.

The last tournament I played my Orcs in had fairly similar rules to the ones listed above. The only difference was that you had 1.25 million gold to spend and you didn't get any free skills. Instead you could give any player (apart from Star Players) up to 1 additional normal skill for 20k (and there was no limit on the number of skills you could take)

Under those rules I took the following team:

4 x Blitzers (2 x Stand Firm, 1 x Tackle, 1 x Frenzy) - 400k
4 x Black Orc Blockers (2 x Block, 2 x Guard) - 400k
1 x Thrower with Leader - 90k
1 x Goblin with Diving Tackle - 60k
1 x Lineorc (no skills) - 50k
1 x Troll with Guard - 130k

2 x Rerolls - 120k

Total - 1250k

That worked really well for me as I won the tournament with a 4-2-0 record. Since that set-up was so successful I figured I would use that as the basis for my new team line-up.

Here is what I am thinking of taking at the moment:

4 x Blitzers (2 x Stand Firm, 1 x Frenzy) - 320k
4 x Black Orc Blockers - 320k
1 x Thrower - 70k
1 x Goblin with Diving Tackle - 40k
1 x Lineorc - 50k
1 x Troll - 110k

3 x Rerolls - 180k

Total - 1090k

This still leaves me with 110k to spend.

I have a few options of what I could spend the money on:

• - Star player - there are a number of options here and I am open to shuffling around my line-up to afford one.
  - Apothecary
  - Bloodwiser Babe (or 2)
  - Drop the unskilled Blitzer and hire a skilled Mercenary. The overall result is it would cost 80k more than a rookie Blitzer but would have 1 normal skill and the Loner skill. I could gain an extra skill this way. Alternatively I could do the same thing with the DT Goblin and have the Loner skill on him instead.

For those of you that are wondering why the heck I chose Stand Firm x2, Frenzy and Diving Tackle for my 4 skills here is my reasoning.

Stand Firm - By taking 2 Stand Firm Blitzers it allows me to set up a Defence that almost completely stops a 2 turn TD. The 2 SF Blitzers cover the wide zone. Unless they are knocked over by a Blitz my opponent's drive is basically stopped in it's tracks. The only other way to get through is by making multiple dodge rolls, sometimes through multiple tackle zones. My team only gave up 2 TD's in 6 games due to this defensive set-up.

Diving Tackle - This one is a little out of left field but I got great use out of it in the previous tournament I played in. It made the Goblin a real defensive weapon. Most teams either tried to move around the Goblin or had to suddenly change their game plan when they realised one of their players was basically unable to move. It allowed me to play the game on my terms and I am really unlikely to take the skill off the Goblin.

So what do you think of my line-up so far? And what should I spend my money on?

Olaf the Stout[/list]

[mattgslater]

You might consider getting Guard on the Troll over DT on the Goblin. That DT Goblin does sound fun, but it all begins on the line.

At 1.2 M, Orcs really aren't optimal: other teams can largely afford enough reserves to deal with their AV deficit. But here's what I'd do:

4 Blitzers: 32
4 BOBs: 32
2 Throwers: 14
1 Troll: 11
2 Goblins: 8
3 TRR: 18
1 Apo: 5

Or 1 Thrower, 1 Goblin, 2 Linemen and 1 AC, perhaps... either way, 13 players plus Apo makes you able to foul a lot.

[Olaf the Stout]

I'm not really sure about losing the DT Goblin in favour of the Guard Troll. I understand what you are saying about the LOS but in my tournament I found the Troll lost the use of Guard a lot of times due to failing his RS rolls. While he would be guaranteed to still be able to use it on the LOS I found it was wasted a lot of other times in general play.

If anything I would prefer to lose the Tackle Blitzer before the Diving Tackle Goblin (yes, I found him that useful). The other thing I was wondering was if it was possible to take Guard on the Troll using the Mercenaries inducement rule. It would mean that the Troll would cost 190k but it would mean that I could take 5 skills instead of 4. And the Troll already has Loner so having him as a Mercenary doesn't really make much difference that way. Is what I suggested there legal rules-wise?

Also, what about taking someone like Ugroth Bolgrot? Sure, he would only be good for one drive but with 1.2 mil I have the cash available to take an extra player to replace him in the second half. The Chainsaw would be great for breaking armour or forcing the opposition to move around him (or concentrate on him) for fear of being chainsawed. Either way I could see that as being an advantage for me.

Olaf the Stout

[mattgslater]

Inducements are designed to be a bad deal for the money: otherwise, the underdog would usually win, as modular inducements have an advantage over a fixed roster. Unless you're planning on playing a team race that gets a special break, I think you should have a strong prejudice against them in this format.

[Olaf the Stout]

Well I had a practice game with them against a Norse team. I didn't get to learn much as I had a lucky game. I was breaking armour all over the place and he only had half a team left by the start of the second half. In comparison I lost a Blitzer on the first turn of the game. That was all the cas I had. I lost the Troll halfway through the second half when he was sent off on a foul trying to clear the pitch!

It was disappointing the game was so lop-sided as neither of us got to test out our teams like we were hoping to. I did see that the Stand Firm came in handy, especially against the Norse with all their Frenzy players. My opponent forgot about Stand Firm a couple of times, which gave me a slight advantage. The Goblin was able to pin down a couple of players but he wasn't really needed due to the fact that there weren't many players left to mark.

Hopefully the next game I play will be a little more insightful.

Olaf the Stout

[Olaf the Stout]

Ok, I'm tossing up between 3 line-ups now.

Line-up 1
4 x Blitzers (2 x Stand Firm, 1 x Frenzy) - 320k
4 x Black Orc Blockers - 320k
2 x Thrower - 140k
2 x Goblin (1 with Diving Tackle) - 80k
1 x Troll - 110k

3 x Rerolls - 180k
1 x Apo - 50k

Total - 1200k


Line-up 2
4 x Blitzers (2 x Stand Firm, 1 x Frenzy) - 320k
4 x Black Orc Blockers - 320k
1 x Thrower - 70k
2 x Goblin (1 with Diving Tackle) - 80k
1 x Troll - 110k
1 x Ugroth Bolgrot - 70k

3 x Rerolls - 180k
1 x Apo - 50k

Total - 1200k


Line-up 3
4 x Blitzers (2 x Stand Firm, 1 x Frenzy) - 320k
4 x Black Orc Blockers - 320k
1 x Thrower - 70k
1 x Lineman - 50k
2 x Goblin (1 with Diving Tackle) - 80k
1 x Troll - 110k
1 x Ugroth Bolgrot - 70k

3 x Rerolls - 180k

Total - 1200k


In my practice game I found it very difficult to find a player to foul with. On defence I typically left one Thrower and the the non-DT Goblin on the bench. That meant I really had to foul with either the DT Goblin or the Thrower.

I didn't really want to foul with either of those players. The DT Goblin is too valuable to lose on an ejection. And I wasn't keep to risk fouling with my Thrower either. This left the Troll, Blitzers and Black Orcs, which I consider to be even more valuable. As a result I didn't really foul in my practice game. The only time was when I was trying to get the last opposition player off the pitch. I used my Troll (as a joke since the result was no longer in doubt) and he was sent off without managing to clear the pitch!

The first line-up listed is what I used in the practice game. The second line-up swaps out the second Thrower for Ugroth Bolgrot. He would play on defence in place of the Thrower. If I received first he would probably replace the DT Goblin on Offence. That gives me more opportunity to foul since I can use Ugroth without worrying that I am losing someone I need for the rest of the game.

The third line-up is the same as the second line-up but the Apo is swapped for a Lineorc. This would give me 14 players, allowing me to foul a lot without worrying that I will run out of players.

So what option do you think I should go with? Line-up 1, 2 or 3? At the moment I am leaning towards 2 but I want to see what other people think about it.

Olaf the Stout

[besters]

I would go with option 2 as well, but probably be taking guard on either Black Orc's or Blitzer's instead of Stand Firm.

[PubBowler]

By taking 2 Stand Firm Blitzers it allows me to set up a Defence that almost completely stops a 2 turn TD.

Whenever I read something like this, I always wonder what the virtue of this tactic is.

Your standard tactic in tournie games without progression is to score one more than the opponent.

If you receive, bash down pitch for an 8 turn score.
2nd half, if they score quickly (say in 2 turns) then you have enough turns to get a return score, most likely against a severely depleted team.
If they stall, they're stalling for a draw.

If they receive and score quickly (say in 2 turns) then you have enough turns to get a return score.
2nd half you grinding for the win.

Having 2 x Guard (my pick over 2 x Stand Firm) would help with more of the typical tournie game than Stand Firm.

And Chainsaws are underpriced right now, I'd take Ugroth.

[mattgslater]

If you stall your opponent out, you turn the ball over, or leave it as a toss-up scrum, where your Orcs should have an advantage. If your opponent receives first, but can't hang on and gives up a TD on your turn 8, it's probably your game, as you'll hammer down in the second half; pressure won't help, as they'll be at a 2-0 deficit, and a takeaway score against you is easily recuperable with a little elbow grease. Stand Firm dramatically increases the odds of that happening.

I still think your DT Goblin, while lots of fun and really cool, is not as good in a format like this. Stand Firm and Frenzy are mostly (by no means exclusively) for use against elves and rats, but I worry about this team's ability to handle a Guard-heavy Dwarf or Undead team. And having a rookie Goblin on the field will give you a guy you can take risks with, especially in list 1.

That said, I like all three lists. List 3 lets you start out with the saw on offense and blast a hole in the opposition right away. He's a lumberjack and he's ok. Then when he's sent off, you have two reserves to foul with. It's not like having 14 guys, but if your weapon takes out two guys before he goes it's actually a lot better. I don't think you need an Apothecary on this team more than you need a 13th player, so I'd take 3 over 2. List 1 is my starting wish-list in a league format, but I advised that without thinking of Urgoth.

With Urgoth and a Troll, I'd not hesitate to opt to receive first.

[Olaf the Stout]

By taking 2 Stand Firm Blitzers it allows me to set up a Defence that almost completely stops a 2 turn TD.

Whenever I read something like this, I always wonder what the virtue of this tactic is.

Your standard tactic in tournie games without progression is to score one more than the opponent.

If you receive, bash down pitch for an 8 turn score.
2nd half, if they score quickly (say in 2 turns) then you have enough turns to get a return score, most likely against a severely depleted team.
If they stall, they're stalling for a draw.

If they receive and score quickly (say in 2 turns) then you have enough turns to get a return score.
2nd half you grinding for the win.

Having 2 x Guard (my pick over 2 x Stand Firm) would help with more of the typical tournie game than Stand Firm.

And Chainsaws are underpriced right now, I'd take Ugroth.

I too was skeptical of the 2 SF Blitzers over 2 Guard Blitzers. However I decided to give them a go in a tournament and see how they went. I found that they worked really well. By having them on the flanks it stopped my opposition from getting past my defence on T1.

The only way that they could do it was to try and block the SF Blitzer and hope for a Pow or Pow/Dodge, or dodge through multiple tackle zones. In order to get a 2d Block on the SF Blitzer they either needed a ST4 player or someone with Guard to assist. This would then leave the Guard next to an Orc Blitzer in my turn.

In all 6 games I played no-one was able to take down my flank. Most teams didn't even try to attempt it, they just took the easy 2d Block on one of my non-SF Blitzers instead. By doing that I got my opponent playing on my terms, which is exactly what I want.

By not having to commit several players to mark players making a break down the sideline I had more players available to pressure the ball carrier, possibly getting me a turnover. My DT Goblin worked really well in this situation.

Even if he never got next to the ball carrier, the psychological aspect of him really affected my opponents decision making. They tried to keep the ball carrier out of his reach and were really focused on him. This once again kepy my opponent playing on my terms.

I played a relatively agressive on defence. This worked for me in a number of ways. If it came off for me I would get the ball, stopping my opponent from scoring and possibly scoring myself. By being agressive it forced my opponent to move the ball up the field. He couldn't stall in his half. Also, if it didn't look like I was going to get the ball and it looked likely that my opponent was going to score, I tried to make sure that he scored quickly. The quicker they scored, the better it was for me as it gave me more time for my Orcs to grind the ball up the field.

I was only scored against 2 times in 6 games. Those scores came in T3 and T4 in the first half of those games. In both cases my opponent would have risked a block on the ball carrier if he decided to stall. So the SF Blitzers let me dictate the game more, as I can decide if I want to allow a quick score or try and hold him up. It also helps me if I have been forced to score early in a half. With the SF Blitzers I have a much better chance of stopping a 2 turn TD reply.

Would having 2 Guard Blitzers be useful? Definitey. However SF also came in handy on a couple of other occasions. I found that they were a skill that opponents often forgot about. They would make a Block, get a Push Back result and go to move my model before I would remind them about SF. SF also let me position them near the sidelines without having to worry about them being crowd-surfed.

Olaf the Stout

[Olaf the Stout]

If you stall your opponent out, you turn the ball over, or leave it as a toss-up scrum, where your Orcs should have an advantage. If your opponent receives first, but can't hang on and gives up a TD on your turn 8, it's probably your game, as you'll hammer down in the second half; pressure won't help, as they'll be at a 2-0 deficit, and a takeaway score against you is easily recuperable with a little elbow grease. Stand Firm dramatically increases the odds of that happening.

I still think your DT Goblin, while lots of fun and really cool, is not as good in a format like this. Stand Firm and Frenzy are mostly (by no means exclusively) for use against elves and rats, but I worry about this team's ability to handle a Guard-heavy Dwarf or Undead team. And having a rookie Goblin on the field will give you a guy you can take risks with, especially in list 1.

That said, I like all three lists. List 3 lets you start out with the saw on offense and blast a hole in the opposition right away. He's a lumberjack and he's ok. Then when he's sent off, you have two reserves to foul with. It's not like having 14 guys, but if your weapon takes out two guys before he goes it's actually a lot better. I don't think you need an Apothecary on this team more than you need a 13th player, so I'd take 3 over 2. List 1 is my starting wish-list in a league format, but I advised that without thinking of Urgoth.

With Urgoth and a Troll, I'd not hesitate to opt to receive first.

In this format there are only 4 additional skills allowed per team. It is a regeneration, no progression league so the most Guard I will come up against is 4. There are 13 players in this tournament and each of them has 3 teams which they can choose from for each game. I don't know what 2 of the players have picked, but out of the other 11 coaches only 2 have nominated a Dwarf team and 1 has nominated an Undead team.

So, depending on what teams people pick to play with each game, (you don't know what team out of the 3 your opponent has chosen until the big reveal at the start of the game) I may not even play against Dwarves or Undead.

The top 3 races selected are Skaven (5), Necromantic (4) and Orc (4 - and one of them is mine). No other race has been nominated more than twice. So I'm much more likely to be facing quick dodgy teams than slow, strength teams. With that in mind I'm happy enough with my choice of SF over Guard.

As for choosing list 2 or list 3, I'm not so sure that no taking an apo is a good option. In my practice game against the Norse one of my SF Blitzers got SI'd in the first couple of turns. I completely forgot that I had an apo available, otherwise I would have used it on him. I think it is better for me to have the apo available to save an important player like one of the skilled Blitzers, rather than have an extra Lineorc that may not even come on the field.

The second line-up will still have 12 players left after Ugroth Bolgrot is sent off the field. If I receive first that will probably be at the end of the first half when I score (if he hasn't already been caught by the ref before then). That will probably still leave me with 12 players for the second half (especially if I have the apo there to save a player). I think 12 players is more than enough.

If I kick-off first I will still probably start with him on the field. I'm guessing that at worst this will see me with possibly 11 players for half the first half and the second half. That assumes that my opponent score halfway through the first half and has also CAS'd one of my players.

I don't see many games where I will lose more than 1 player halfway through the first half. If that does happen then I am probably not in a good position to win the game regardless of whether I have 12 or 13 players + Ugroth. If I have lost more than 1 player it probably means I have lost 2 good players from my side and my opponent has scored. That's not a great position to be in.

Thoughts?

Olaf the Stout

[AK_Dave]

Due to the Resurect format, I would take a Babe over an Apo.

The purpose of an Apo, in this format, is to make sure that your key players come back for the second half. Its a little different than the Apo's primary role in a normal league: keeping your top stars alive. Okay, so if you look at what $50K buys you in terms of getting your hurt guys back on the field then an Apo works once, 50% to put the guy into the Reserves box so he comes back next drive. Or a Babe gives you a 16.66% chance of each of your KO guys coming back. Sure, they already come back on a 4+. Now they come back on a 3+. And the Babes work over and over and over for both halves while the Apo works once.

In league games it is a common occurance for me to allow someone to keep a nasty wound, even decapitation, in the first half and then go the entire second half without getting a chance for the Apo to do anything. Thats because I'm trying to save him to keep my top stars alive. In a Resurrect format, I'd be more inclined to use an Apo to defibrillate the first guy to hit the D&I box, but the Apo still offers nothing for the far more common KO results.

The other thing is my Apo rule of thumb. Which is to compare the price of a basic lineman to an Apo. If I can have one more guy for the same, or less, than an Apo then I feel that I'm better off with one more guy. Especially in a Resurrect format, where I have no risk of permenant injury for my best players. Especially in THIS format where my "best" is only one skill better than "rookie".

Okay, Inducements in this format come down to Babes or Bribes. Nothing else is worth taking, and Bribes are overpriced for this format.

My choice would be #2 above. With Bolgrot. He's cheap. Swap the Apo for a Babe. Thats a solid team of 12 and a cheap chainsaw to point at your opponent's cheesiest player.

[Smeborg]

AK_Dave - although, like you, I like Babes, the arithmetic for an Apothecary is slightly different to what you have stated.

The Apothecary works 100% on Badly Hurts, 50% on other Casualties.

And further, if you are playing LRB6, the Apothecary can be used on K.O.s (converts to stun).

Hope this helps.

[AK_Dave]

Okay, LRB6 the Apo can help a KO. I'm aware of that. But he states LRB5 is the ruleset.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think I did the math a while ago too.

A babe means every KO has a 1/6 better chance of coming back. An apoth is a 100 or 50% chance of an automatic comeback depending on the initial result. So assume you only use the apoth on a Badly Hurt to guarantee the player coming back.

That would mean the equality point is around your 6th KO roll (regardless of what sort of team you've got). On average, ignoring modifiers, you'd have 4 casualties then too. So with the apoth you'd almost certainly have a choice too - where the babe is random.

Now two babes vs an induced apoth you've got good odds - but that isn't the normal scenario.